Date: Sun Sep 18 11:20:03 2005
Sender: Serge Kassabian
this thread isn't intended to discuss but to vote. aj's thread can be used to
discuss. answering this forum should be done under this format :
-------------
[ yes i am in favor | no i am not in favor ]
[ i think the limitation for age should be XX | no limitations for age ]
[i think the limitation for training should be XX | no limitations for training
]
[ i am ok with a fine of 1M 3 times | i am ok for a fine of XX | i am against
fines ]
-----------------
you must answer the 4 questions for your vote to count. do not add extra
comments in this thread, thanks.
Date: Sun Sep 18 11:22:25 2005
Sender: Serge Kassabian
yes i am in favor
the age limit should be 21
no training limit
a fine of 0.2M per player should be payed every week
Date: Sun Sep 18 16:47:55 2005
Sender: AJ Perko
yes I am in favor
age limit should be when minor contract expires
Training level is my business, unless you can share the exact SIM formula of
training, explaining it to everyone.
Date: Sun Sep 18 17:12:00 2005
Sender: AJ Perko
forgot this one, and didn't see the extra comment part.
[ i am ok with a fine of 1M 3 times
Date: Sun Sep 18 23:08:03 2005
Sender: Tim Hane
Yes, I am in favor.
The age limit should be when minor contracts expire.
No limitations for training.
I am OK with a fine of 1M 3 times.
Date: Mon Sep 19 01:01:18 2005
Sender: Serge Kassabian
the limitation can't be the end of minor years, because a 17yrs old can have no
more minor league years and a 40years old have some left.
limitations are age and training. nothing else. that was specified in the vote
format, age and training only. past 2 votes don't count.
Date: Mon Sep 19 07:28:15 2005
Sender: Laurent Boudias
Yes, I am in favor.
The age limit should be 27.
No limitations for training.
I am OK with a fine of 1M 3 times.
Date: Mon Sep 19 07:43:51 2005
Sender: Larry Newdorf
No i am not in favor (but if I was....)
The age limit should be 27.
No limitations for training.
I am OK with a fine of 1M 3 times.
Date: Mon Sep 19 11:02:50 2005
Sender: Red Burley
Since part of the proposal has yet to be determined (number of players exempt),
I am casting a "provisional" vote-
Yes I am in favor-assuming that at least two players per team are exempt. If
there are no exemptions allowed, then my vote would become "no"
I think the limitation for age should be 21 (i.e., fines start at age 22)
No limitations for training
The fine should be 0.2 mil per player per week
Date: Mon Sep 19 11:11:02 2005
Sender: Tim Hane
No, I am not in favor.
No limitations for age.
No limitations for training.
I am against fines.
Date: Mon Sep 19 13:57:35 2005
Sender: Karim Cheaib
Now Thats constructive Tim.
Guys, allow me to put a stop to this thing, it's going to be hell to come to an
agreement.
The first proposal is IMO a good one and is a consensus to all of the ideas. So
i strongly urge you guys to go ahead with the following, cos this vote idea
right now is not the best since everyone wants a different thing.
- If player age is 25 and over then the team will be fined
- If player age is under 25 and training 19 and over the team is fined UNLESS
the player in question has a minor league option left on his contract.
- Every team is ALLOWED to have and UP TO 2 players that violate those rules in
their minor team.
- Therefore, if you have TWO OR LESS players violating the rules, you are NOT
subject to a fine.
- BUT if you have THREE OR MORE Players that violates those rules, then you are
FINED 1M at the beginning of the season, at mid season point and at the end of
season for a maximum total of 3M.
From my long experience in Soccer, i think those rules will do a lot of good to
the league, and it will impact positively each and everyone of our team, it
will only take a bit more effort on our part to build a strong minor team, but
everyone will benifit from it at the end.
Date: Mon Sep 19 14:12:48 2005
Sender: Tim Hane
"Now Thats constructive Tim."
What's the point of this comment? The instructions at the beginning of this
thread state that it is for voting only with no additional comments. I voted.
Date: Mon Sep 19 14:26:05 2005
Sender: Karim Cheaib
And i made a comment on your voting, because rejecting everything just like
that is not very constructive. The voting also requested to give ideas in an
organised fashion, and all you said is that you are against everything, so it's
not very constructive....
Date: Mon Sep 19 14:52:14 2005
Sender: Serge Kassabian
The only reason i opened a voting possibility was to show you that we can't
please everyone. if i say 29 people will complain, if i say 21 other people
will complain. a commish's job is to find a common solution for which the least
people will complain. if that isn't found. the commish will cut with a
decision. we sent many emails, and we didn't get much reaction, so we had to
chose. if you participated more before we cut maybe it would change... but
since we don't have a majority, the rules karim talked about earlier will be
applied. thank you for understanding.
Date: Mon Sep 19 15:03:08 2005
Sender: Tim Hane
I think I understand the purpose of this thread now. Thanks for explaining it
to me.
Date: Mon Sep 19 15:04:35 2005
Sender: AJ Perko
You guys are spreading misinformation,,,
all minor contracts expire at 26 years of age.
If you wish to make a rule restriction for 25, I suggest you change minor
contracts to expire at 25 also. The purpose of a minor contract, is to pay a
guy less to play in a league like "juniors".
as for TR restriction... thats like having a SH restriction for forwards or a
TK restrictions for defense- kind of pretentious.
Date: Mon Sep 19 15:12:46 2005
Sender: Karim Cheaib
all minor contracts expire at 26 years of age.
Unless you decide to sign a prospect from the Waiver Wire like i did, he has 14
tr but has a contract so when he reach 19TR before his 25, you will have to
promot or cut.
If you wish to make a rule restriction for 25, I suggest you change minor
contracts to expire at 25 also. The purpose of a minor contract, is to pay a
guy less to play in a league like "juniors".
It's not in our hands, you have to ask Andy.
as for TR restriction... thats like having a SH restriction for forwards or a
TK restrictions for defense- kind of pretentious
You lost me there, cos i have no idea what you are talking about
Date: Mon Sep 19 15:20:12 2005
Sender: AJ Perko
Your opinion on TR is just your opinion. You didn't code the game, it's not a
fact.
I've seen guys with 22 training have a good end of year age gain, followed by a
good camp and peak at far older than 25. By saying no youngster over 19
training will get any better is just your opinion-
**What happens, you have your team all together for the season. and at
training camp you have a 20 year old kid who goes from 18 to 20 tr, now you
have to cut him??
at this point I'll probably just build 3 million into my budget and not worry
about it.
Date: Mon Sep 19 15:23:10 2005
Sender: Karim Cheaib
AJ, honnestly, you are starting to bug the crap out of me. We are trying to
make this league better, not to make it worst. We are trying our best, and
we're not saying this is the perfect solution, but it's the best one we found
so far.
Do you have to critise everythign you see without ever giving the benifit of
the doubt.
So what would you like us to do, just enjoy the fact that we are Comish and not
do anything?
Date: Mon Sep 19 15:26:15 2005
Sender: Karim Cheaib
"By saying no youngster over 19 training will get any better is just your
opinion- "
Oh and by the way, i never said he will stop improving, thanks for impleying
something that i never said. I Have been in DEL long enough to know that you
can still improve at 22-23 Tr and even 24. At 19, you are not considered a
prospect anymore.
For example, in baseball, if i come up to you and say this kid is 25 years old
with 19 TR he's a prospect, I don't think you will consider him as such.
Date: Mon Sep 19 15:45:54 2005
Sender: AJ Perko
Well from the looks of "WE" you mean you and Serge, according to all the other
coaches that voted.
If you didn't want responses - why did you ask for them?
Date: Mon Sep 19 15:50:03 2005
Sender: Karim Cheaib
Yes serge and I cos WE are both comish and WE proposed those rule changes.
We do want reponses, but AJ you tend to critisez every thing you see, and
sometime for no apparent reason, and you don't try to understant the whole
thing, you just stick to one point.
Now, you want to make constructive critisizm you are most welcome to do so...
Date: Mon Sep 19 16:00:03 2005
Sender: AJ Perko
Karim-
Serge said don't add any comments-
Tim responded in simple exact fashion just like asked, and you didn't like it.
More or less anyone whose disagreed on this thread has been accused of being
negative... it seems because they don't agree with you.
I can't think of anything positve about using TR level as another part of
playing in the juniors, nor do I see anything good about having 22,23,24's in
limbo- too old to play in juniors - not developed enough to play in majors.
I'm not sure how to say that constructively other than how I have all along, by
voting that I don't prefer it.
Date: Mon Sep 19 16:00:29 2005
Sender: Laurent Boudias
well it seems that since you didn't have a positive response from your fellow
coaches, you decided to pass a rule not approved by us, the coaches.
I change my vote. I agree with Tim. No restrictions AT ALL.
The role of the commish is also to listen to the coaches, not to impose some
dumb rules against their will.
My Vote is against restrictions.
Date: Mon Sep 19 16:06:40 2005
Sender: Karim Cheaib
LOL, since when we imposed this rule, i never did, and those rules are still
not official since we are discussing them.
But hey, listening to you AJ and Laurent, Serge and I are dictators.
We proposed an idea, and we are explaining why we think it is good. Since when
you propose something and you don't try to defend your idea.
All you have done AJ is to say that this is no good, and you are against it.
But hey you know what guys, let's forget about this whole thing, I will just
sit on my ass, and use the fact that i have a free season, and not do anything
else other then signing up coaches.
So much for making this league more competitive again, by having 17 coaches
instead of like 5.
I hope your happy AJ, but why this doesn't surprise me from your part.
Date: Mon Sep 19 16:26:55 2005
Sender: Red Burley
Lets not have this debate degenerate into a pissing contest, PLEASE?
I have to say, this vote confused me quite a bit. Karim brought this back to
the *original* proposal now-the one that was explained to us in the email. This
is what I assumed the vote would be on; and then Serge presented this other
list of options for us to vote on-leaving me to wonder what we were actually
voting on.
My griping about exempting players from this rule-which is covered in the
original proposal-has mainly to do with goalkeepers; since they tend to mature
slower then the other positions, they will probably tend to stay in juniors
longer.
I must agree with AJ about TR levels-I think they are irrelevant. I am not the
most experienced Del player, but it seems to me that the training rating in all
the sims has little relevance to how a player performs. Maybe Im wrong on this,
but that is how it appears to me. (If Im wrong, Id love to have someone set me
straight on it.)
Date: Mon Sep 19 16:40:17 2005
Sender: Serge Kassabian
No my father is taller than yours, no my fathers is stronger ...
kids, please listen to me for a second. This isn't a question of who is right
and who is wrong. this isn't a issue about bugging or dictatorship. here are
some facts about the sim, that i picked up in the help files :
- a player who plays more than 10 games in the major league, doesn't have minor
league years anymore. even if he is 17.
- a player who doesn't play any games at all, will never lose his minor league
years.
so you can have a 17y old who doesn't have minor league years anymore. should
we cut him? i doubt so.
the role of a commish isn't to do whatever coachs decide, you have a wrong idea
on that. if all coachs decide that all teams should be rewarded 10M we won't do
it. a commish is here to insure that the league is the most realistic. in real
life, the minor league (nothing to with divisions again) is under 21 that's it.
here is an example
city A has a team. if this team plays well, there are in the first division.
they don't have another in another division (except some cities). so you are
part of one division. age groups is a different issue. you have 5-7, 8-9,
10-11, 12-13, 14-15, 16-18, 18-21 and over 21. i checked on the internet. the
minor league's purpose is to have players under 21, not 25, not 26, 21. we
tried to be not too strict and left this on 25. we only want coachs to be able
to judge their minor league talent by playing against teams that aren't filled
with 30 years old players.
as for discussing, i'll nicely ask you to respect each others more. this is
ridiculous. i can't believe what i am reading. we are a team of people who are
trying to have fun. never forget that. you want the best players, talk to me,
i'll sell you mine, just not to hear you all talk like this. i did a huge
effort to fill the league to have fun, not to create a royal rumble. do an
effort.
as for this issue, i was completly right and i hope you understand now the real
reason for the creation of that thread. this is what happens in our email when
we propose something. i just hope that on the next proposal, you'll take the
time to calm down and react differently.
here is the final decision :
- conditions to be fined : player's age to be >24
- fines : 0.2M per player per week.
example you are fined for 5 players you'll pay 1M per week.
- we will not cut the players if you don't do it.
- training and minor years won't be a counting point.
at least we listen to your point of vue, and we don't just consider your point
of vue is your point of vue. just remember one more time what i explained about
the end of minor league years.
Date: Mon Sep 19 16:44:13 2005
Sender: Red Burley
In any case, I dont like seeing the negative tone this discussion is starting
to take. Serge and Karim are trying to do something constructive; whether its
is the best thing to do, I dont have a clue. What I *do* know is that being
negative about things isnt going to help anything. If you disagree with the
proposal, is it possible to a) do so without letting it become personal and b)
provide some suggestions for improvement or alternatives ?
This reminds me of the furor that arose in the CBA last season over a contest
the commishes ran. They announced it, nobody said anything, and when the
contest winners were announced, people started screaming bloody murder. People
even quit the league over it!
Folks, Del is an imaginary world where fictitious players engage in make-belive
sports events for our entertainment. There is NOTHING that take place here
which warrants launching personal attacks on each other. In other words, ITS A
GAME. Its for FUN!
It amazes me that people can get their blood pressure so out of range over a
game. Cant we all just get along? Sheesh.
Date: Mon Sep 19 17:00:20 2005
Sender: AJ Perko
" a player who doesn't play any games at all, will never lose his minor league
years."
Serge-
your minor league contract expires at 26 no matter what.
Find a player over 26 who has minor years left, or a guy under 26 who's minors
remaing + age don't add up to 26 because I can't.
It's exactly the same as Baseball.
Karim-
you asked a bunch of "YES/NO" questions- how much do I have to sugar coat a
"NO" to say I don't agree with it and not be accused of being a trouble maker
by you.
of the 3 propositions, there is one I didn't agree with (TR level) and another
open for opinion (age restrict), 1 I didn't care about (amt of fine).
I'm not going to keep rephrasing myself- I made a point, explained my view,
asked for yours?... instead of defending or explaining your reasoning you took
offense to people disagreeing with you and made it personnal.
I would have been happy making my one or two posts on the topic, and let you
decide- instead of all this--
Date: Mon Sep 19 17:14:39 2005
Sender: Serge Kassabian
1529 E.Galley MF 21 3 4 9 6 3 6 3 L 12 100 0.00 0.00 -- C B MF
373 R.Mariscal MF 22 4 4 7 6 4 4 3 - 13 100 0.00 0.00 -- C C MF
are 21 and 22 and don't have minor league years anymore, they are in my minor.
and you have a lot of those in your team as well.
Date: Mon Sep 19 17:59:51 2005
Sender: AJ Perko
(minors) you can lose it once you play so many major games... but it can't last
beyond 26.
I think we just misunderstood- my point was the age "26" already was designated
by Andy as the age things change.
Not saying it's definately the best, but that was my point, from a contract
logic.
Date: Mon Sep 19 18:25:37 2005
Sender: Serge Kassabian
i completly agree with that it would have been a great idea to set this as a
max, but you can't forbid a coach to use a 17y old in his minor if he played 10
major games. so minor years isn't the best solution. have you read the long
message i wrote? i included the final solution. does that suit you at least?
Date: Mon Sep 19 19:51:28 2005
Sender: Laurent Boudias
1- I was asked to vote, I did it, though I am not interested in this
discussion.
2- this thread was supposed to be without comment.
Now I see a commish who comes here to comment about the fact that the first
votes are not in the way he thought.
You don't like my answers? Who cares. I was asked to vote, I vote no
restriction. Now I am not raising the tone like people think I am. I just don't
like the way it is done here.
I'm out of this thread. Do whatever you do since our votes are not considered
as they should be. Tim voted no restriction, which was the first question (Yes
or No). Karim and Serge don't like the fact we answer no? Forget ya.
Date: Mon Sep 19 22:36:21 2005
Sender: AJ Perko
As for Serge's final deciscion..."does that suit you at least?"
"No one over 24 or you get fined?-" Ok, if you think that is best I'm not
going to get intense over that.
Though for the last time it's hard for me to look at good "free agents"
unemployed, if I have D D's youngsters who will never be of any value.
do what is best.-
Date: Tue Sep 20 06:04:48 2005
Sender: Karim Cheaib
"Though for the last time it's hard for me to look at good "free agents"
unemployed."
Next Off season, will go over the list togethere, and i'll give you a list of
promising prospects.
Date: Tue Sep 20 13:35:32 2005
Sender: AJ Perko
..
as it is right now, you can entirely build your team through waivers, in fact
you could probably start fresh each season and put together a good team.
As long as waivers are full of AA players you don't need to worry about minors.
I play in about 7 del leagues, probably 10 or 11 since I started. Some have
good coaches who keep their talent, and the waivers are sparse.. those you need
to get good young players.
others the waiver wire is totally loaded and young talent does meake much
difference- thats EFA right now.
-----------------------
their are coaches in real life who use both
philosophy. Some have great farm systems (to use baseball Atlanta Braves)
other just continually win and buy new players each year the Yankees, Real
Madrid in Soccer. Manchester United before a yank bought them.....
If you guys feel the need to make rule changes just do it, though I've never
been a fan of
"for your own good" stuff-
Date: Tue Sep 20 17:41:55 2005
Sender: Klaus Von Meyerinck
this discussion and the entire minor stuff is just a waste of time and energy.
dont you think this sim has way way bigger problems to be solved? it has to do
as much with soccer as the fidschis with winning the world champonship.
I see totally unrealistic stats, like forwards scoring 60 goals a season, teams
scoring 150. gimme a break... I can't even determine my substitutions the way I
should etc etc... this sim lacks any feel of soccer. unless this isnt changed
this will never make people stick around and never will be a success.
and you guys fight about Tr level as a criteria in minors? wow...
Date: Tue Sep 20 20:02:35 2005
Sender: Matt Hanson
I am in favor.
IOFA Los Angeles Burglars
Date: Wed Sep 21 15:12:07 2005
Sender: Alan Lee
Well here's my vote, if anyone is still counting...
1. YES -- for age restriction for minor league players (perhaps age>24)
2. NO -- for minor league TR training limit
3. YES -- set fines for going over the age restriction
IOHL Buenos Aires
Date: Thu Sep 22 06:08:10 2005
Sender: AJ Perko
I'd like to bring a deviation of Lary Newdorf's idea over...
Age could be 21 or 24 or whatever....
+
any player with minor league eligibilty remaining. That way you can hold a
prospect, in case he is a late developer and still maintain the integrity of
the minor leagues so people can't horde older talent.
So guy who are only minor players could in theory be as old as 26 late
bloomers, guys who have lost their minor eligibility you can set an age for.
Date: Thu Sep 22 16:31:50 2005
Sender: Karim Cheaib
Ok so from what i can see so far, it will look something like that:
Age limitation: 24 or Under UNLESS you still have minor league contract
therefore the players are exampt from the age limitation
No limitation on Tr level.
I would like to propose that only one exemption could be made instead of two,
what do you think?
As for the Fine, it will be 1M up to 3M a season, and coaches will get a one
week notice at the beguining of the season. Though, anytime after that notice,
if a coach goes against the above rule, he will be automatcly fined if he has
an illegal roster for more the 2 consecutive games.
If thats the case, I like the idea personally.
If I didn't get it right, let me know.
Date: Thu Sep 22 21:28:38 2005
Sender: Serge Kassabian
i think that those aren't strict enough restrictions, and if they would take
effect, i would propose a tougher fine. i would even propose 0.2M per player
per week. which would mean if you have 3 fineable players, you would 0.6M every
week. regular weeks, not dolphinsim weeks (which is a week per day). when such
restriction is applied in real life, you pay every game.
i would apreciate comments on that as well, thanks
Date: Thu Sep 22 22:18:01 2005
Sender: AJ Perko
Do you have to manually do a fine? or can't you just set it to fine per game,
per player?
It should probably be pretty steep, since it's not like a roster limitations
where a guy can heal when you weren't paying attention. You would have to
intentioanlly add a guy to your roster-
please get the bold black warning on the roster page though.
Date: Fri Sep 23 07:12:02 2005
Sender: Karim Cheaib
We have to manually fine every team. Serge is willing to do it like that, I
talked to him about. We go on our commish command, and we choose a team, and
apply the fine.
Date: Tue Sep 27 08:40:10 2005
Sender: AJ Perko
Starting when?
Dolphin Simulation Games is not responsible for the content of posts.
Please report any offensive messages to help@dolphinsim.com.
