Date: Thu Mar 22 05:30:34 2007
Sender: John Henry
Hey gang,
I thought I would throw this out there as trade talks are one of my pet
peeves as a Pro team owner. It's not targeted at anyone just overall comments
fom my recent experiences in the different leagues. These are some random
points in no particular order.
*When submitting a trade block include the players grades and at least a
general idea of what you want. The grade help us lazy folk to know what caliber
we are looking at as well as keep us from thinking you are hiding something.
Knowing what you want, even if it is generic like prospects or veterans, saves
a couple extra emails if you get talks going.
*ALWAYS ALWAYS respond even if the answer is no. I know some owners throw out
something that is absolutely ridicilous just to see what happens. This is my
big pet peeve is that I like to be active in discussions, the deal we can't get
done today may lead to a deal later. There is one owner in one of my leagues
that I just delete any trade blocks because he has NEVER responded to any of my
offers to them. It may be an email issue but I highly doubt it. (And Yes he is
a successful long term owner)
*Don't be afraid to counter offer. I think this is the lost art in DEL. We all
value players differently and see different needs. If the first offer is close
but not quite acceptable by both parties then send a counter or choice of 3
players to see what happens. Don't give up, if you get positive dialogue going
keep it going. My most successful trades very rarely are resolved in one email
and offer. I probably am unreasonable but I expect a counter when both teams
have needs and are actively seeking trades. There is a deal out there, it just
may take some work.
That's it - Feel free to add more of your own that I missed.
Date: Fri Mar 23 06:21:45 2007
Sender: Tom Williams
I think you've overestimated the overall level of involvement of these leagues.
Date: Fri Mar 23 11:55:36 2007
Sender: John Henry
Perhaps on a complete league level.
I am mostly referring to active owners that submit trade blocks, PR's and
appear to be active in the leagues.
Date: Fri Mar 23 12:53:04 2007
Sender: Tom Williams
I'm willing to guess that some of the trade talks are just a way to get a feel
for how much value a player or draft picks have. In some cases the owner may
not even intend to trade the player, but if something ridiculous comes along
they would then pull the trigger.
We all value players differently.
Not all trade talk needs to result in an actual trade to provide some type of
value to one owner or both.
Date: Sat Mar 24 17:14:12 2007
Sender: Ken Perry
I'm not one to make a lot of trades, just in general, understanding the axiom
"when you trade players you inevitably get a player someone else wants to
trade."
BUT...if someone comes at me with an insulting offer, I won't counter-offer,
period, even regardless of my tendency not to make many trades. I'll figure
the other guy tried to rip me off, and I'm not going to trust him.
I get really angry when I see someone try to get away with a very uneven trade
in CEL, which is why I veto trades pretty easily. I think one should have to
trade value to get value, and while some may see ripping other owners off as a
part of the game and a legit way to build a contender, I don't.
Date: Sat Mar 24 18:22:48 2007
Sender: AJ Perok
as frustrating as it may be to some, you do keep CEL clean.
Date: Sun Mar 25 20:28:02 2007
Sender: Vinchenzo Ramzini
yeah i wish we had a commish that would block the trade of the 1st overall pick
of a rookie owner for 2 c rated aging vets,,,, as we had in CFL last season.
Date: Mon Mar 26 20:03:53 2007
Sender: Brian Dust
I agree with all the sentiments John expressed to start this thread.
Date: Sat Mar 31 15:46:22 2007
Sender: Jeff Luddingsmash
My biggest trading PP are the coaches that continuously ask for way too much
for their players, or way too little for yours. There is probably about 10
coaches whose trade block emails I don't even bother to read anymore.
Date: Sat Mar 31 23:35:17 2007
Sender: Joshua MacOscar
I'll add to that by mentioning the coaches that not only try to rip you off,
but chastise you when you make a fair counter-offer.
I've been part of negotiations where a coach offered me something like a 3.45
CC player and a third round draft pick for a moderately priced AA or BB
all-pro. When I countered by asking for a player that would make the deal fair,
they respond with "Are you crazy?!?!?!?!"
My biggest pet peeve is when I am offered multiple players for one star. It is
as if people really think that you will trade an AA star for four role players.
People need to consider if the players they trade you will start for your team.
My second biggest pet peeve is when I am offered players that I don't need.
LOOK AT MY ROSTER BEFORE YOU MAKE AN OFFER. If I am loaded at a position, don't
try to dump your overpaid player that won't make my team.
My third biggest pet peeve is when someone tries to run my team for me. Like
when I read, "Hey man, you could really use a safety." When people ask if I
want to shore up a weak position, that is cool. It is those that try to tell me
that I have to trade for their player.
Date: Sun Apr 1 16:00:53 2007
Sender: Ken Perry
The thing that most bothers me about deals like that is that some owners accept
them!
In fact, if that weren't the case, they'd probably rarely be offered.
I sometimes see trade blocks that I can't believe, like someone offering a 28
year old D D player, or any one of several, for "an upgrade at [position]."
A 28 year old D D player has no value (less than none if the contract is too
high), so why the heck would anyone offer an upgrade at a position to acquire
one?
I've seen so many "jusitifications" for such trades...when someone managed to
get an A A QB (I think) for a couple of C C veterans, and I vetroed it, saying
one has to trade value for value, he said, "Well, I don't have any star
players, so what am I supposed to do to get them?"
Uh...waiver wire?
Most legit trades are fairly small ones, generally salary dumps where someone
unloads an overpriced player for very little in return, or a bit less often,
when, say, someone has 4 good WR's but is weak on the offensive line so offers
one of the WR's for a similarly skilled OL (usually, none of the involved
players being stars).
My advice to anyone who's offered a few roleplayers for a reasonably priced
star: Don't counteroffer and encourage future ripoff offers, but write back,
"Are you crazy? That offer is insulting!"
Date: Sun Apr 1 21:52:57 2007
Sender: AJ Perok
"My third biggest pet peeve is when someone tries to run my team for me"
LOL, this is my favorite too.
I have championships in football and baseball and someone who I don't even know
will come at me and tell me- I need a certain WR or need to upgrade my LB's...
and then apply some logic to how I am going to benefit- like I'm a schlupp.
(plus I work in sales... those tactics only annoy me)
-----------------
The best was in EAFL, when I forget who, posted the
e-mail trade offer that was just ridiculios as a press release.
and then humorously mocked the offer.
Date: Mon Apr 2 11:07:52 2007
Sender: Chris Oaks
*Sigh*. This thread makes me miss being in a pro football league.
Date: Wed Jun 13 20:33:47 2007
Sender: John Henry
I had some interesting, (in a good way) conversation with another owner
recently and we reminisced about some of the ideas on this post so thought I
would bring it back as I know several leagues I am in are just finishing or
beginning.
A lot of good suggestions here....As I send out a trade block in CEL for a
D-rated draft pick I am going to cut... :)
Date: Thu Jun 14 15:24:09 2007
Sender: Bill Edwards
I try to remember one simple statement in regards to trades of any kind. "I
have to give up value in order to get value in return."
A "good" trade will benifit both parties always.
Date: Fri Jun 15 07:39:38 2007
Sender: Brian Steinberg
Any easy way to facilitate trades is to check in on Yahoo Chat, AOL IM, MSN
MSNGR, etc and look for other owners.
Date: Fri Jun 15 07:40:54 2007
Sender: Brian Steinberg
RE: "yeah i wish we had a commish that would block the trade of the 1st overall
pick of a rookie owner for 2 c rated aging vets,,,, as we had in CFL last
season."
Hmm that traded included 2 first round picks, 2 prospects, and 2 B/C veterans
if I recall.
Date: Tue Nov 27 11:55:32 2007
Sender: John Henry
Bump - Baseball post onging now about trades and Brian Dust reminded me of this
one I did a while back.
Date: Wed Nov 28 09:30:17 2007
Sender: Johnny Gunn
Hey Kyle, EAFL Cleveland, I have sent you 2 replies to your trade block in the
last week, none of them have been returned. I have sent one to the co-comish
George, at Indy, no return. 3 other messages were sent to unnamed GMs in the
EAFL, regarding there trade blocks... no return. My offers might of not been
the greatest, but, a simple reply back or counter offer would be nice. I make
it a point to get back to almost everyone that contacts me regarding trades. A
lot of offers are low balling, but, I usually make a counter offer if I see
something else I like on there team. I see a lot of trade blocks at DEL, but I
also see a bunch of lazy GMs that don't want to work to make a deal.
Date: Wed Nov 28 12:58:13 2007
Sender: Jay Schlegel
Makes me wonder if spam filters are catching some of the offers/replies. If
so, I wonder if there would be a way to set up a reply in-sim to avoid the
filters?
Date: Thu Nov 29 12:22:09 2007
Sender: Kyle Mayhugh
I'm not the one sending the Cleveland trade blocks. I've got a GM now that
handles all of it. Not sure why he hasn't been replying.
Date: Sat Dec 1 15:27:25 2007
Sender: Dale Schaar
I personally dont really care if the letter grades are included on a trade
block or offer from a coach. I think at this point in my coaching career i can
pretty much figure out what positional attribute values are.
Also, A trade that looks like a bad one to someone, could be exactly what
another coach needs to "Fix" a problem with his team immediately and could be
worth trading away more player value to get what he needs to take care of the
problem. example:
Randy and I traded our 1st overall pick and a second year quality CB for an AA
WR and CC OL that neither has a contract past this season and will not resign.
Now when you first look at the trade it looks like a stupid trade. But we
needed to fix our OL immediately, and we didnt have alot of cap room (knowing
that the waivers wouldnt yield much like him without spending a fair amount of
money). The original deal was to aquire a veteran QB because we traded away our
young QBs to aquire some talent through out the rest of the team. We decided to
get a different QB and took the WR instead. The WR gives us 3 Starting WRs that
will cause alot of problems for defenses. The WR will more than likely be
franchised next season and or we will use him as trade bait. Either way hes
going to make a difference on this team. The biggest motivation for us was that
we felt the draft didnt have the players we were looking for, a draft where a
top 10 pick could very easily become a wasted pick. So we went with the sure
thing! If we offered you one of the top players that gets selected in this
draft for this WR would you make the trade?
855 M.McGinty WR 26 6 2 7 9 1 1 9 1 21 AA WR
You wont get that FOR SURE in ANY round of the draft. Then imagine him playing
with these guys:
605 M.Coover WR 27 9 1 6 9 1 1 3 0 20 AA WR
2083 B.Neal WR 24 10 3 2 9 2 3 9 1 19 AA WR
and you can see the direction we are going. Oh yeah and we made a deal for this
TB:
1185 P.Mariani TB 28 8 3 8 2 3 2 8 1 19 BB TB
and already had this TB:
501 T.Arrowsmith TB 23 4 3 8 5 3 3 6 0 15 CC TB
This offense has alot of dimension to it. The trade makes alot of sense to us.
Here is the OL that was part ofthe deal:
937 A.Battersby C 29 1 2 2 1 9 10 9 0 20
His stats:
Team PA P PY PTD R RY RTD Int Sck Blk BA Avg
Ind 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 400 629 63.6
Ind 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 3 412 710 58.0
Ind 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 269 459 58.6
Ind 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 305 506 60.3
Ind 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 122 207 58.9
Ind 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 191 306 62.4
That doesnt look like a CC OLmans stats. He is a solid pickup.
Date: Sat Dec 1 16:33:48 2007
Sender: Joshua MacOscar
Dale,
It is okay dude. Everyone has different opinions. Don't let it bother you.
Date: Sat Dec 1 20:54:14 2007
Sender: Darren Reifler
" A
lot of offers are low balling, but, I usually make a counter offer if I see
something else I like on there team. I see a lot of trade blocks at DEL, but I
also see a bunch of lazy GMs that don't want to work to make a deal."
I posted about this in the baseball forum, but will post here where there is an
expanded dialogue between leagues. I am only active in baseball and hockey
these days.
Actually, my pet peeve is when people look over my roster and pick out who they
want in return. They have put up a trade block saying that they will trade X
player, and I respond with who I am willng to move in return. I get turned off
when they then expect me to open up my roster like a candy store.
Normally, if I am willing to move a guy he will be listed in a trade block or I
will offer him to you. To me it is far better to respond that the offer isn't
good enough and specify what exactly you are looking for that is different.
Then let me go back and see if I can come up with something better or we can
both walk away.
I realize that this is in large part personality, but I am sure I am not the
only one that thinks this way.
Another problem, is be honest. If the guy has faults then tell me or I lose
trust that you are trying to work a fair deal and figure it isn't worth my
time. I won't get specific cause I don't want it to seem like I am calling
anyone out, but I think you are better off showing the rust under the hood
right off. Don't wait for me to look at your roster to find out he has a 100
million dollar contract or his career productivity is way below his abilities.
Date: Mon Dec 3 16:51:34 2007
Sender: Dale Schaar
Thanks Lyme.
Date: Tue Dec 4 11:35:58 2007
Sender: Kyle Mayhugh
Yep. I like to sign guys to big contracts and then trade them later, but I'm
always very upfront about them being high-cost.
Date: Tue Aug 12 06:32:28 2008
Sender: John Henry
Just had a very interesting dialogue via email with another owner that went
south fast.
Suffice it to say I offered less than what the 'perceived value' of the player
I wanted. I gave an alternate and offered an additional prospect of his choice,
in addition to the two players offered, as I didn't know what he valued.
The response I got back was basically 'Are you crazy? This is insulting.'
Now I have made numerous trades in all the leagues I have been in. There was no
counter, there was no 'here is what I am really looking for' and quite frankly
ended in an agreement to never trade together. Kind of disappointing as the
league is full and active to have one team that will play that kind of game.
I will readily admit I cut the alternate player I offered several hours later,
he was a B level guy not performing on my team. I had roster injuries healing
and had to make some kind of move, so that probably looked bad. No excuse, but
to me a B level player has some value to some owners and he was just an
alternate choice to stir discussion if the original prospect was not to his
preference.
As you all will note I intentionally left out names, leagues etc as I just
wanted to revive this post and stir some discussion or perhaps help some of the
newer owners with the thoughts of many of you in the Pro leagues making trades,
to better help them negotiate through the process.
To me this is the most interesting part of the sim. You not only get the game
results of the sim but the GM interaction makes for a fun league if you have a
lot of active owners.
Date: Thu Aug 14 12:57:37 2008
Sender: Brian Dust
Not much can be done if the other GM doesn't even bother to make a
counter-offer.
Date: Sat Aug 16 17:03:20 2008
Sender: Darren Reifler
A lot of GMs, myself included, are reluctant to negotiate with people that
low-ball. I rarely if ever counter-offer if I think the starting point is way
too low. Often it is just a matter of a difference of opinion, and I am sure
other people have thought some of my offers way too low.
That said, often the low-ball offer is done precisely to try to get a
counter-offer. By simply responding with a polite, 'no thank you, but if you
have any other ideas contact me' it torpedoes the strategy (if it was indeed
done intentionally). In short, a lot can be done, but it involves you going
back and coming to me with a new starting point. If I feel it is in the
ballpark I am easy to close a deal with, but I intentionally try to avoid
certain negotiation traps.
Date: Sat Aug 16 17:05:08 2008
Sender: Darren Reifler
To clarify, I was using "you" in the generic sense, I haven't negotiated with
anyone recently ;)
Date: Mon Aug 18 06:50:56 2008
Sender: Jeff Luddingsmash
Darren, I agree. When I get a low ball offer, I just ignore it. I don't bother
submitting a counter offer, cause the whole thing seems like a big waste of
time.
Date: Mon Aug 18 10:37:52 2008
Sender: John Henry
I think there is a difference between 'low balling' and trying to find common
ground. We each value different players so sometimes it's hard to get the right
trade on a first pass.
Date: Mon Aug 18 11:20:35 2008
Sender: Brian Dust
Much depends on how much information the GM sending the TB provides. If he
doesn't give any indication of what he'd like to receive in return, it makes it
very challenging for a GM who responds to make a decent offer.
There are also some pointless statements that should be omitted from TBs, such
as "all offers considered", and "serious offers only".
Of course in baseball, it seems many GMs dream of landing starting pitching in
return. While such dreams are unlikely to come true, even if the GM included
information like 'front-of-the-rotation' or 'back-of-the-rotation', it would
give respondants some idea of how the GM sending the TB values his talent.
I agree with John that talent evaluation is very subjective. There aren't any
immaculate trades. While every GM has the right to ignore what he feels is a
low-ball offer, even a response along the lines of, "I'm really hoping to get
something more in return, like a prospect or a pick (listing some prospects
would be helpful)" may be enough to get fruitful negotiations started.
Date: Wed Aug 20 17:11:04 2008
Sender: Darren Reifler
I should clarify that I never intentionally ignore an offer completely. I
always send something back.
I am not saying that there aren't differences in interpretation. However, if
you are offering something that has no real value to you, then you are probably
trying to low-ball. That is different than saying you have 3 great IF
prospects and want to swap one for a great OF prospect. I am thinking more
trying to offer a 39 year old C rated pitcher for a young starter.
In any case, I always try to make it clear that you are free to send back any
other trade ideas. So, if it was just a difference of opinion (as happens)
then you can re-evaluate and I don't hold grudges.
Also, if you name rhymes with Park and have a trade block up in MEL either
update the trade block or respond to a guy I know that I heard has been trying
to inquire about a trade.
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