Date: Tue Jul 22 16:28:02 2008
Sender: Adam Dutton
Today I unvailed my shiny new option-based offense, after painstaking
scrimmages in the off-season, only to have the sim manipulate it its way. I
have this great-looking option QB-
M.Corbitt QB Sr 0 8 9 9 2 3 4 6 19
and a good FB who blocks better than he looks-
C.Pack FB Fr 9 1 6 3 4 4 1 2 9
1. I had set up the offense so that the QB, TBs and FB would all carry the ball
equally. In my game today Pack got zero carries and his backup only ran twice.
I changed my option plays to feature the FB, listing him in the direction of
the play's alteration (after MANY changes), included alot of FB runs, and had
FB runs usage set to 37.5%. I ran the ball 49 times overall. I had fine-tuned
my plays over the course of 13 off-season scrimmages and many protos with
varying defenses. I know that the sim will use your best or worst plays
depending on what it wants but only 4% of the runs? What happened? Did the sim
determine that my FB wouldn't run well? Does it devalue FB runs (because we all
know they are less-effective and manly used for variation) to the point that it
won't call them?
2. And in all my scrimmages Corbitt rarely played less than 75% of the time
with alteration set at more, but the second half started with my #2 QB (who
sucks) taking the field, and then alternating back and forth for the rest of
the game. I know the sim will substitute more often if a player is producing
poorly. He was pretty average at the end of the half but his stamina is suppose
to be 6. Does anybody think this was because of intangibles - Corbitt's stamina
is actually terrible and scrimmages don't reflect stamina? Or did the sim
decide that he was ineffective? I realize Corbitt's Rst at the end of the half
was 78, which would (I guess) justify the switch at more alt. I guess the
question here is do scrimmages reflect a players intangible abilitys or do they
just not reflect stamina?
Date: Tue Jul 22 19:51:11 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
I guess we don't agree on some things....
I'm not trying to be a know it all or smart ass, but I think I'm right about
the stuff below:
"I know that the sim will use your best or worst plays
depending on what it wants "
- Not sure if thats true at all. I've had 2 turnover and 2 sacks on the same
pass play and TD on another only run once. I think it moves toward trends, but
not specific plays.
"I know the sim will substitute more often if a player is producing poorly"
- I don't think this is true either.
Your max fullback called plays where he is the primary runner is 50%. Not
fullback runs, plays where he is the primary.
An option the QB is the primary.
Your "in play" alteration needs to be more or most or he will pitch the ball a
lot, at "least" or "less" he may keep it to much. The trick is finding the
ratio, keep in mind I believe the pitch is partly determined by the runners
ability to get through the hole- not break tackles.
If you have packages where there are no FB runs it could distort things.
Remember the SIM thinks linearly, it picks the package, then run or pass, then
the play...... I don't believe it self corrects anymore to achieve ratios (I
may be wrong), every play is an independent chance..(Can someone verify?)
A QB running option will get tired very quick and may start subbing every few
plays toward the end of the game. You may need to turn your depth chart to
"moderate or less"
Date: Tue Jul 22 20:17:41 2008
Sender: Adam Dutton
Thanks AJ,
I had adjusted each option plays alteration to get the best mix of runs to
the appropriate back, some with least or less to have the QB keep and others
more or most to get the back the ball. This is why some of my option plays
listed QB, FB, TB. Some options didnt even have a third back, just the QB and
FB- and these were called often but even with alt at more the QB always kept on
these. That is why I was so puzzled at the lack of FB runs, even with his own
plays like I said in addition to the options, and the FB usage setting so high.
I don't think it had to do with the holes to run through and my middle run
setting.
I do think the sim picks the plays it wants sometimes. I seen it too many
times when I look over multiple games or scrimmages at a certain play that is
getting ripped, only to find it is being used out of proportion to the usage I
think it should be or its usage setting.
Date: Tue Jul 22 20:23:43 2008
Sender: Adam Dutton
BTW- you'll appreciate this, I lost today by 5 'cause with 35 seconds left on
their 7 yard line I call the infamous end zone pass - a 10 yard corner my
BACKUP couldn't complete. Gotta love it!
Date: Tue Jul 22 20:25:45 2008
Sender: Adam Dutton
well, not just that.
Date: Tue Jul 22 21:09:36 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
"just the QB and FB- and these were called often but even with alt at more the
QB always kept on these."
that is interesting.
That would mean I'm wrong about my assumption of just getting through the
hole, and thinking about it that makes sense. I have a horribly running QB and
he always pitches even on less.
The only thing that would make sense to me for you is a formula that looks at
your alteration, the hole AND the quality of the runner.
FB's are hindered by the "padding" penalty when it comes to rushing.. maybe
they are hindered considerably? and your FB's 6 rush is really looked at as a
4, and the other FB when he's in (which was 41 plays) is totally worthless as a
rusher- compared to your strong rushing QB.
Meaning it would have to be an incredibly great opportunity for your QB to
pitch it to even Pack... and almost never to Dansky.
Thats the best explanation I have.
Date: Wed Jul 23 07:02:37 2008
Sender: Jay Schlegel
First... oh, how I wish DEL *would* yank someone if they were performing badly!
Those 0-fer shooters on my CBEL teams over the years would be at the top of
the list. As AJ said, to my knowledge there is no determination of
effectiveness, only the depth chart usage / stamina type calculations.
It's been a while since I ran the option, but here is my troubleshooting
attempt:
As for why didn't the FB get the ball, first ask yourself what did you change
between the scrimmage where the FB got the ball as much as you wanted and the
next game. If the answer is "absolutely nothing changed", then the QB kept the
ball instead of pitching it because the hole(s) the QB was running at in the
game were better than the hole(s) the QB was running at in the scrimmage (or,
rather, the QB *thinks* that this hole is better), causing him to keep it
rather than pitch it. In other words, this is the difference between running
your offense against either your defense, a prototype defense, and a real
opponent's defense. (Prototype scrimmages are really only good for looking at
ratios of play calls, and/or play calls in certain situations, not for
fine-tuning results; only the game scrimmages and actual game conditions are
good for that.) In particular with the option you have to look at the actual
play calls, NOT how many times each particular player actually handled the
ball, to see if you are getting the mix you want. Another factor is
ahead/behind. If your ahead/behind settings kicked in, that could drastically
affect how often any particular play is run.
However, if your answer is "well, I did change some things after that
particular scrimmage", then that may be your answer. Especially, obviously, if
you did anything with the various playcalling options. But also if you made
any changes to depth chart usage or training. Increased training will tire
your players more, leading to substitutions. And you already know that running
the option will tire your QB more than running a typical offense.
Lastly, if you are comparing to your 15 pre-season scrimmages, and the players
in question had attribute changes during training camp, that can also affect
your results. Particularly, QB rushing/intelligence attributes.
Hope that helps.
Date: Wed Jul 23 20:15:50 2008
Sender: Adam Dutton
Thanks for the time Jay,
I guess what happened was the holes were more open for the QB in the game
rather than the scrimmages. After review my D line that the scrimmages ran
against was alittle better than my opponent's Monday. This would answer the
question about the QB keeping the ball. Now my question is if this was true why
didn't the QB rush for more in the scrimmages to make up for the lack of FB
runs?
I am going to stick with your assumtion that scrimmages don't reflect enough
and the holes weren't there, but I'm still also thinking with all my settings
that the sim de-valued the FB runs, either by definition or from the fact that
it thought my QB would run better than the FB. Surely we have more control than
that?
Thanks again.
Dolphin Simulation Games is not responsible for the content of posts.
Please report any offensive messages to help@dolphinsim.com.
