Date: Wed Jul 16 11:27:14 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
I realize it's only one game, but I think most are like this.
I'd swear in football the most common rush is between -2 yards
and 5 yards. I don't have proof but I'd bet 50% of all
rushing plays fall in that catagorie.
So what is up with all the -5's????
I think the running game is far to extreme, and should be re-centered toward
the middle.
Hole closed, Tackled by Givens (DT ) for 5 yard loss.
Tackled by Ramirez (DT ) for 5 yard loss.
Tackled by Cooper (DE ) for 5 yard loss.
Tackled by Ramirez (DT ) for 5 yard loss.
Tackled by Ramirez (DT ) for 5 yard loss.
Driven out of bounds by Cooper (DE ) for 5 yard loss.
Tackled by Cooper (DE ) for 5 yard loss.
Tackled by Cooper (DE ) for 3 yard loss
Hole closed, Driven out of bounds by Allen (DE ) for 3 yard loss.
Tackled by Cooper (DE ) for 2 yard loss
Hole tight, Tackled by Bridoux (DE ) for 2 yard loss.
Hole tight, Snap fumbled Tackled by Cooper (DE ) for 2 yard loss.
Tackled by Ramirez (DT ) for 1 yard loss.
Hole tight, Tackled by Givens (DT ) for no gain.
Tackled by Cooper (DE ) for no gain.
Hole moderate, Tackled by Givens (DT ) for 1 yard gain.
Tackled by Jeltema (SF ) for 2 yard gain.
Tackled by Hopper (OLB) for 3 yard gain.
Tackled by Allen (DE ) for 3 yard gain.
Tackled by Lasseigne (DT ) for 5 yard gain.
Tackled by York (OLB) for 5 yard gain
Tackled by Jeltema (SF ) for 5 yard gain
Tackled by York (OLB) for 6 yard gain
Tackled by Park (SF ) for 7 yard gain.
Tackled by Mello (CB ) for 7 yard gain.
Tackled by Cooper (DE ) for 9 yard gain.
Tackled by Jeltema (SF ) for 9 yard gain.
Tackled by Park (SF ) for 11 yard gain.
Tackled by Liu (CB ) for 11 yard gain.
Tackled by Park (SF ) for 11 yard gain.
Tackled by York (OLB) for 11 yard gain.
Tackled by Jeltema (SF ) for 15 yard gain.
13 yard Touchdown!
Date: Wed Jul 16 16:17:14 2008
Sender: Adam Dutton
Looks like your 28th-ranked OL got handled by a 5 man front (that's 6th in
talent), even though he dropped a man into coverage often. I do agree there are
too many -5 yard rushes in DEL though. Nice win and season!
Date: Wed Jul 16 17:11:04 2008
Sender: Lord Bremen
In real football, 75% of runs are not sweeps. See how many of those -5 come on
runs up the middle. Or try some TBs with Weight rather than Speed.
Date: Wed Jul 16 19:19:58 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
Do you just make stuff up?
A) do you see sweeps at 75%?
B) those aren't small backs
Dengler WT 3
Pajares WT 4
C) 28th line by "team talent". They are better than that. I
wouldn't be 9-1 if they were that bad.
Hole closed, Tackled by Givens (DT ) for 5 yard loss. (sweep)
Tackled by Ramirez (DT ) for 5 yard loss. (middle)
Tackled by Cooper (DE ) for 5 yard loss. (inside tackle)
Tackled by Ramirez (DT ) for 5 yard loss. (inside tackle)
Tackled by Ramirez (DT ) for 5 yard loss. (inside tackle)
Driven out of bounds by Cooper (DE ) for 5 yard loss. (inside T)
Tackled by Cooper (DE ) for 5 yard loss. (middle)
We had this discussion once before, If you check the NFL on any give Sunday you
might find 2 or 3 -5 yard runs on the entire day every team combined. (Yes
I've checked before)
Date: Wed Jul 16 20:00:37 2008
Sender: Kyle Mayhugh
I agree with AJ about the frequency.
I don't know if it's hard-coded into the game or if it's an artifact of how
teams play defense?
Date: Wed Jul 16 20:01:28 2008
Sender: John West
Agreed. I ran a 5-1 with different keying because I knew he would either get
-5 or 10 yards on his rushes. Not only is that a bad average (2.5 although he
managed 2.7) but the big loss often stops the drive. Rushing shouldn't be so
extreme.
Date: Wed Jul 16 20:09:34 2008
Sender: John West
Before I go too far trashing the sim, I think you can only play that defense
with the right personnel...
Date: Wed Jul 16 22:05:12 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
I use the same essential philosophy...
Date: Thu Jul 17 05:17:02 2008
Sender: John West
I saw you doing it before I began experimenting with it. So really, this is
your own fault :)
Date: Thu Jul 17 07:59:16 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
LOL...
I didn't really look to see what defense you were playing. I know that seems
dumb, because I read the PbP's I just don't always pay attention.
Still, this is an old topic I brought up once before. 7 rushes for -5 yards is
a ton, after my running back got dumped the 3rd or so time, I'd be replacing
him for someone that would just run forward.
There should be a bit more "conservatism" in a running game. I can understand
getting sacked and knocked back to 2nd and 15 or more.... but for a running
game thats crazy.
Even against a standard 4-3 it happens to much.
Though since it is an old topic, I imagine nothing will be done about it.
Point is, there just aren't that many -5 rushes on a Sunday.
Date: Thu Jul 17 08:19:05 2008
Sender: Lord Bremen
Ok so the sim isn't 100% like real life. Does that make it any less fun?
I'd much rather have a fun sim that is pretty similar than trying to tweak
every little thing to be just like real life.
Date: Thu Jul 17 09:26:06 2008
Sender: John West
Not a bad point but I think in this case it would be more fun if it were more
realistic. I see the passing game as too conservative and the running game as
not conservative enough. That means there's a lot less difference between
running and passing in the sim then there is in reality. This makes strategy
in game planning and roster building (run vs. pass) a little less relevant and
IMHO a little less fun.
Date: Thu Jul 17 09:26:16 2008
Sender: John West
Not a bad point but I think in this case it would be more fun if it were more
realistic. I see the passing game as too conservative and the running game as
not conservative enough. That means there's a lot less difference between
running and passing in the sim then there is in reality. This makes strategy
in game planning and roster building (run vs. pass) a little less relevant and
IMHO a little less fun.
Date: Thu Jul 17 09:58:33 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
maybe we should give players super powers too...
that could be fun.
Date: Thu Jul 17 12:55:48 2008
Sender: Doc Barnes
You know, I've never seen any problem with running the ball forward. Sure, you
have to expect to take a few runs for loss against teams that have beter D-line
than your O-line but establishing the running game has seemed pretty straight
forward. Even against five man fronts.
But maybe it's just the way I see it.
Date: Thu Jul 17 13:56:38 2008
Sender: Kyle Mayhugh
One possible contributing cause:
People run out of single-back sets, a lot.
Date: Thu Jul 17 15:28:17 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
Most of you are just throwing ideas out there. Im curious if anyone besides me
has ever looked at it?
Whether your running from the Power I or a 4 Wide Set- there are still too
many -5 losses.
I know the average 4.0 or whatever works out to the right ratio, but that
doesn't mean you should have a bunch of -5, and 10 yard gains to get it.
I'm done with this topic. Watch a Sunday of football, I'm right.
Date: Thu Jul 17 15:40:57 2008
Sender: Doc Barnes
You're not right, C'mon.......
I really don't feel like running the ball is that hard to do. I will say
though, that a running game is more than setting up every running option within
package building, and doing them normal/misdirection. Sure seeing a few TFLs
in every game is usual, but if you're seeing that many, than you're not running
effective run plays, or not using a FB.
I remember when I first started and had trouble with my running game. I got
advice from Keefe and Opaskar about making sure to have your "#6" OL as your
FB. More specifically you're best guy with RB. I've refined things over the
years but I rarely run out of a lone TB, unless I'm 4 wide, because there never
seems to be good holes without a FB.
Date: Thu Jul 17 17:36:40 2008
Sender: Kyle Mayhugh
We're the ones just throwing ideas out there?
Date: Thu Jul 17 18:00:45 2008
Sender: Lord Bremen
Try running some real life packages in prototype scrimmages if you want.
Because a ton of the packages that people use (I know just about all my
offensive plays at least) simply don't happen in the NFL. How many NFL teams
have zero FB runs, zero TEs period...
Right now the sim is fun. If we change it to make it more real it might be
just as fun, it might not. But we won't gain anything, other than a couple
people who want it to be more "real" won't whine as much. It's FANTASY
football. Not real. And that's fine.
Date: Thu Jul 17 19:23:34 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
1) Fine me a Sunday with 5 or more 5 yard losses in the same day and I'll send
you some Florida oranges or something.
2) not running effective plays
From Wednesdays game
IFL Philly 31 for 85
EAFL Buffalo 36 for 177
CFL South Florida 22 for 121
same playbooks... I think my offense is just fine considering all 3 teams won
at least 10 games.
Date: Thu Jul 17 23:15:07 2008
Sender: Doc Barnes
Okay maybe not effective running plays, but what's the season sample size?
I'm not trying to argue, I just think that if you want to run then you have to
construct a more real life running game. No gimmicky packages, just straight
forward I'm gonna run the ball down your throat 'Great Lakes', three yards and
a cloud of dust football. And a FB is key to that.
Date: Fri Jul 18 09:53:49 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
The whole point of this message was not that
you can't run or you can't win by running..
it was simply there are too many -5 runs. If a running back gets tackled for
-5 more than once or twice a game he would be a moron.. 7x per game and he
would have to be a vegetable, considering he starts only about 7 yards deep.
A -5 and a 10 should not be the majority of a 5 yard average... It should be
more runs of about 5 yards.
Date: Fri Jul 18 16:19:41 2008
Sender: Adam Dutton
Nearly half of the runs for 0 or less in that game was where a TB bounced from
the intended hole. Could your perticular case be of a in play alteration
setting be too high, at the playbook or play level? The TB would be in that -7
to -5 range when he is trying to make a decision, instead of just running
forward to the intended hole without thinking. Those TBs are a little short of
In.
Date: Fri Jul 18 17:31:56 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
thats interesting Adam...
perhaps, I wonder about that correlation.
He is a very stupid running back.
I still stand by my point though. -5 yard rushes are very rare.
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