Date: Fri May 9 18:09:31 2008
Sender: Doc Barnes
I don't condone kicking a man when he's down but I have to address this for new
coaches, and those who are trying to get things going in CCEL. Henry's recent
tirade, and removal have spurred me to do this for the sake of anyone who wants
to get better.
"It doesn't matter anyway because I'm done with this s***. Fitzpatrick can have
my team for all I care, or no one can. I wish I could cut them all so no one
could have them and they could start over at 0-40 like I did and see who had
the balls to try and who had the skill to make them respectable."
First of all SC was never 0-40 like Henry states. In fact having watched the
SEC for the last three years I know that the reason SC fell off was due to a
coach before Henry that didn't have the stuff needed to coach at tier 1. That
coach wasn't able to recruit or develop a consistent gameplan and thusly ran SC
into the ground. After that coach left Bob coached them for a few years and
did as expected by being absolutely horrible because of a lack of talent and
prestige from the previous coach.
My point. Rebuilding a program is not an instantaneous thing. Henry didn't
have the patience for it or the ability to handle a few losses while building
up his team. Any of you newer coaches that want to play in tier 1 should
disregard any of Hnery's tirades and understand that there is a way to make
things happen, you just have to be a little patient with the time it takes to
get there.
That's all I really have to say and I apologize if anyone thinks I'm speaking
too harshly but I couldn't believe what I saw today in regards to Henry's
actions.
Date: Fri May 9 18:46:32 2008
Sender: Andy Dolphin
Actually, South Carolina was 0-8 in SEC play all five seasons before Henry took
them over (and 1-7 the two seasons before that). Under Henry, they were 2-6
the first year and 5-3 the second (with a bowl appearance).
That said, you absolutely need to be patient with rebuilding. Good coaching
gives some immediate benefits, but its biggest effect is the ability to land
better recruits next season. And, it's several seasons before those recruits
make their effects felt.
Date: Fri May 9 18:58:04 2008
Sender: Doc Barnes
I know SC was terrible but it wasn't like they hadn't won a game which was
implied in the original statement. WHat Henry had been doing at SC was great
but he was having trouble dealing with the growing pains and unforeseen losses
that accompany the change into tier 1.
Like Andy said, and like I said. Rebuilding takes alot of patience and when
you get to tier 1 there is a serious growth that must take place in order to
rebuild. Some guys catch it quickly, others take time. No matter what though,
take it as it comes and learn in order to develop your program.
Date: Fri May 9 19:17:16 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
Pick a Pro-League to hone your skills, even if you want to be only mostly
college.
You'll feel better with the quicker wins you can get in Pro.
Date: Sat May 10 07:42:16 2008
Sender: Red Burley
Just as a general observation regarding some of the problems the
above-mentioned person had . . .
One of the hardest things to do in all DEL sims in general, and the football
sim in particular, is to be able to understand and accept that it is NOT
exactly like real-life football. There are some significant differences which
new players need to be aware of and learn to deal with.
I mention this because, one of the easiest ways to get totally frustrated is to
assume, "I know how football works, so I know how the sim works". You MUST
approach the sim with a willingness to learn and adapt. Bill Belichek, the Dark
Lord himself, would not succeed at the football sim unless he took the time to
recognize the differences and act according to them.
Believe me, I have about as much patience as that other person, and have the
same tolerance for frustration as him-very low! The only reason I've had any
success at the football sim is, I was willing to understand and accept the
setup of the sim.
Remember, the definition of insanity is-doing the same thing over and over, and
expecting different results . . .
Date: Sat May 10 08:29:57 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
that said, I've searched far and wide for a better "playable" football SIM.
There are some that are prettier..... but when it comes to -gameplay- nothing
compares.
and if someone says whatifsports.com I will puke, that is the worst game engine
I have ever seen. I could create something better than that.
Date: Sun May 11 00:16:47 2008
Sender: Alaister Pawley
Henry was an ass. He's just one of those people who go through life blaming
others for anything that goes wrong.
He spent a whole season knocking the Pac-10 and UCLA especially but obviously I
got no apology or admission of error when I took UNC to the wire in the Dolphin
Bowl.
That it was a Pac-10 team that did for him is a wonderful twist of irony. He's
lucky he left when he did because he was going to hear about this long and hard
from me.
Date: Mon May 12 12:54:51 2008
Sender: Jay Schlegel
I had my own run-in with Henry (he was under the misguided notion that his WR
was the presumptive Heisman favorite even after underperforming for much of the
first half of last season), but I now wonder if we are not shooting the
messenger for delivering some very uncomforting news. Obviously his choice of
words was out of line; his sabotage of his team is certainly unforgiveable;
clearly he expected to be booted and was just going to vent and be destructive.
But now his tirade has been written off (literally as well as figuratively) as
the ravings of someone who simply could not adjust. I think it is far from
that simple and is a symptom of underlying discontent, which we see mentioned
by others on these forums with some regularity. But it is easier to shoot the
messenger and decide that we are moving on. Question is: where exactly are we
moving to?
Date: Mon May 12 13:28:10 2008
Sender: Kevin Caery
I think a lot of that discontent comes from those who are simply more prone
than others toward discontentment, and Henry was as much of a crank as I've
ever seen in DEL. The fact is, he was taking a bad team (not the historically
worst team ever as he liked to claim, but certainly a very bad one) and had
turned them into a reasonably respectable one--partly by getting a bunch of
good walk-ons, partly by being a decent coach, and partly just be being a human
instead of Bob. But he absolutely lacked the patience for this sim, which
requires literally a year of your life to completely turn over a roster, and
anyone who doesn't have patience will become very unhappy before they find
success at the highest level of the college sims.
Date: Mon May 12 14:47:01 2008
Sender: Chris Oaks
Jay, we all have the same answer to the question of where we are moving to: We
don't know. Only Andy knows what's going on in his life and when he'll have the
time or energy to tweak aspects of the sim. And if day-to-day, even-keeled
discussion of perceived sim weaknesses doesn't make it enough of a priority to
change it, making those same points in a louder and more disrespectful manner
sure won't either.
He may or may not have the opportunity to make changes in the near future. But
I guarantee you he'll get to it if enough people are dissatisfied and stop
playing. I'm not suggesting a boycott or anything, but if you're that
dissatisfied with the evolution of the sim, I don't know what else you can do
about it.
Date: Mon May 12 14:48:55 2008
Sender: Chris Oaks
NOTE: Let me re-emphasize I'm not trying to run anybody off. It sort of sounded
like it when I re-read my post.
Date: Mon May 12 17:06:25 2008
Sender: Red Burley
Reading the discussion here, especially Jay's comment, prompted me to do a VERY
unscientific survey to test out the maxim that "rebuilding a team takes
patience".
I looked at the top teams in CCEL and CBEL, basically the current Top-25 in
each league. I looked at the coaches and their career records with the current
school, PARTICULARLY their first 4-5 seasons there.
-I ignored coaches who had been with their current school for 4 years or less.
-Furthermore, the coaching records only show X number of seasons in the
coaching record, so for guys like Jay who have been at the same school for 20+
seasons, I dont have complete information. Therefore I ignored their records as
well. Like I said, this is unscientific and I dont have the patience to wade
through 20+seasons in the archives.
So, what I ended up looking at was, current Top-25 coaches who have been with
their current team for 20 season or less. It worked out that I had about 20
coaches between CCEL and CBEL that yielded useful results.
I expected to find a lot of records showing bad records for the first 2-4
seasons, followed by a "breakout" into better records. That is NOT what I
found, however. Out of the 20, there were perhaps 5 coaches who did not have at
least a .500 record their first season!
What does that mean? I dont know. It could mean, these coaches are so good they
can make wine out of water and win with bad players. Or, it could mean they
started out with teams that weren't all that bad to start with.
*I know in my own case, I didnt take the best available team, but certainly
didnt take the worst. *
My thought, based on my voodoo statistical analysis, is that maybe "patience"
isn't the magic word in building a college program . . .
Thoughts?
Date: Mon May 12 17:52:22 2008
Sender: Gregor Ellis
I think Red and Jay are on about divergent issues for the most part, so I'll
break my comments along those lines.
Jay's:
I had some personal (email/IM) contact with Henry, answering questions and
offering solicited advice, as he moved into Tier I just as I have had with many
other coaches over the seasons. I stopped after last season after getting tired
of the unending personal attacks and insults (never had that from anyone I've
been in touch with privately from DEL before) and the basic attitude that he
had nothing to learn other than the 'tricks' of the sim and that his approach
was always correct with any lack of success tied to those tricks and flaws in
the sim. I don't think his frustrations would have been any less in a perfect
environment where he wasn't successful.
Yes there are frustrations, not the least of which is that Andy has not been
tweaking it as he did 3-5 years ago. These deserve discussion - but IMHO those
should result in specific change recommendations that we can ask Andy to
implement or else they are a waste of time.
Red's:
I think what Red observed is that the playability of the sim makes it easier to
build teams than RL, rather than an indication that there is too much
randomness, or to many inaccuracies, in the sim. When most coaches take over a
team, they don't pick the lowest talent even if they want to build a program -
they take over the equivalent of an Iowa that has fallen on hard times for a
couple of seasons. Henry does deserve credit for being willing to take over a
really poor team.
Further, if a coach is experienced enough to figure out accurately how tough
his/her in-conference sched will be, then its pretty easy to set up a soft
non-conf schedule and get the 6 wins. If the coach has gameday coaching moxie,
it doesn't surprise me that they can build it up. IMO, the game is actually
easier than real life since all teams are essentially equal within its Tier
with no benefits from location (Texas, Florida, Great Lakes area, California,
Georgia).
Date: Mon May 12 19:19:33 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
Red-
some coaches put a lot of strategy into "what team to pick".
We have some of the most popular teams IRL, that never have a coach- and some
crappy schools which are juggernauts.
I don't care if a team was 0-12 for 10 years straight.
The biggest obstacles in CCEL are QB,RB, and D-line. If you see a team with
some promising walk-ons, in the right conference you can get to .500 ASAP- and
say "look how I rebuilt!"
That isn't ever really tracked.
Date: Mon May 12 20:18:27 2008
Sender: Red Burley
AJ and Greg, you are both right, of course. But there is a difference between
rebuilding a perennial doormat, and taking over a team that is only a season or
two removed from greatness.
What I was looking for when I did my survey was examples of coaches who took
really horrible teams and built them into national powers. I thought that would
actually prove the point about patiently building up a team. What I found,
though, was coaches taking over fair teams and bringing them to greatness.
And there is nothing at all wrong with that! Thats what I did at Auburn, and
what Im trying to do now at A&M. But Im wondering if it is practical to take a
truly bad team and build them into a power. Possible, yes, but certainly the
odds are against it happening.
Im kind of hoping someone will wade in here and tell me they did just that . .
Date: Mon May 12 20:37:26 2008
Sender: Doc Barnes
I never intended on making a debate out of this. What I wanted to do was let
new coaches know that it is possible to rebuild a program and that they should
take Henry's gripes with a grain of salt because what he bitched about and what
he expected were not within the framework of the sim regardless of how he
interpreted it. Henry expectd things to go his way and wasn't willing to
believe that the sim didn't play his way.
As for the sim tkaing patience, I stand by my statement of such. I'm now in my
fourteenth season at Tennessee. I'm still not 'rebuilt' but I've taken the
time to try and learn while not bitching because the games didn't always go my
way.
Win, and lose, with class. That's what I was always told.
Date: Mon May 12 20:57:17 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
I had Penn State to an 18 or 19 I can't remember after a couple straight 9-4
seasons. I had a 5000 yard passer, a couple AA WR's and the nations #4 D-line.
I quit missed 1 season of recruiting.
As far as I'm concerned PSU is as bad as anyone.
We are 14 prestidge- ranked #68 in talent.
+ With a crappy QB, No runningbacks, no young WR's... really no talent
whatsoever in the fresh or soph classes.
- so if anyone wants to see a "real rebuilding project" have a look.
Date: Tue May 13 06:11:49 2008
Sender: Kevin Caery
Some rebuilding jobs over the years (prior records listed in reverse
chronological order):
Wake Forest before Caery: 3-8, 3-9, 5-8, 3-9
Miami before Griffes: 1-11, 2-9, 4-7, 2-9
Michigan St before Griffes: 3-8, 4-7, 6-6, 5-6
Kansas St before Ellis: 5-6, 4-7, 2-9, 1-10
Georgia Tech before Berg: 2-9, 4-7, 4-7, 5-6
Louisville before DeSanctis: 5-6, 4-7, 8-4, 4-7 (tier-2)
Auburn before Burley: 3-9, 4-7, 2-9, 4-7
Tennessee before Barnes: 3-8, 2-9, 2-9, 4-7
UCLA before Pawley: 3-8, 4-7, 2-9, 3-9
Syracuse before Oz: 4-8, 5-7, 4-7, 5-6
Michigan before Pate: 5-7, 5-6, 4-8, 4-7
Penn St before Perok: 0-11, 2-9, 3-8, 3-8
Oregon St before Ryerson: 3-8, 5-6, 3-8, 8-4
Indiana before Andrade: 6-7, 5-6, 4-7, 5-6
Clemson before McDonald: 5-7, 2-9, 6-6, 3-9
Duke before Chick: 2-10, 3-8, 2-9, 1-10 (1-31 ACC)
Texas before Schwartz: 3-9, 2-10, 4-7, 3-8
Date: Tue May 13 07:04:56 2008
Sender: Red Burley
Auburn before Burley: 3-9, 4-7, 2-9, 4-7
Yes, they had a terrible record, but I inherited a lot of talented players
which enabled me to make Auburn respectable almost immediately. Im sure some of
the other coaches did the same.
Doc, on the other hand, took over a really bad team and went through a slow and
painful rebuilding process. Agaim, Im sure some of the coaches you listed did
the same.
Neither way is right or wrong. However, not everybody has the patience for the
"slow and painful" road. Im just thinking that it would be a good idea to let
new Tier 1 coaches exactly what they are in for if they decide to take over a
Cincinnati, Arizona or Missouri.
Date: Tue May 13 08:17:36 2008
Sender: Kevin Caery
Virtually every tier-1 team starts out with some kind of reasonably talented
players, thanks to tier-1 walk-ons: even those teams you mention have a nice
core of young talent, including promising frosh QBs which are always key. The
point is NO team is completely hopeless, and EVERY team CAN be turned around,
and whether it takes one season or five, it's going to take literally months of
real-life time. Shoot, it can take patience just to make it through a 3-week
offseason or from one game to the next, so every coach taking over a new team
needs to understand this is game that takes time and requires a "long-view".
Date: Tue May 13 08:28:10 2008
Sender: Gregor Ellis
Amen, Brother Kevin!
.
.
.
That's not really tongue in cheek either. I argue with AJ all the time as to
what makes it achievable, and whether you can crack the top prestige level
without (your choice of fortuitous events). But at the end, AJ himself has
built up teams before and probably will do so again. Patience is the key
virtue, especially if you have a favored team and aren't willing to look for
the best available team in terms of potential talent.
Date: Tue May 13 08:44:05 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
well for the record, I know you can turn teams around, relatively methodically.
It may take 6 or so seasons due to the uncertainty of keeping balance at all
recruiting positions. But then you should establish a solid team.
My arguement has always been the jump from 18 to 20 needs luck.
Date: Tue May 13 09:32:57 2008
Sender: Chris Oaks
I guess I'm an idiot, because I don't understand why this "patience" thing is
an issue at all. It's common sense that less talented teams take longer
(theoretically) to turn into a winner. If a guy wants to come in and say "Hey,
a three or four year plan isn't acceptable," that's fine, that's his
personality type, and he can deal with the consequences of putting that
pressure on himself. But are we really worried about scaring off coaches that
make everyone else miserable?
Date: Tue May 13 09:39:45 2008
Sender: Doc Barnes
Kevin, that's exactly what I was trying to get across.
My 14 seasons with UT has been a slow and steady rebuild, considering where I
started from. Tennessee was a bad team with young potential at key positions,
they had been historically bad having only acheived 7 winning seasons before I
took over, and with Bob at the helm even the talent I was looking at getting my
first season could've easily been squandered.
A true rebuild of a not so good team takes time, patience, and a willingness to
learn the sim. It wasn't until almost a year ago this month that I figured out
some strategy to recruiting. Pick the team you want and through improved
recruiting, building prestige with a weekly column and tailoring gameplans it's
possible to move up from 17/18 prestige to the 20 like I acheived just this
season. Tennessee isn't a juggernaut but now they at least are playing well
and earning top rankings.
'My arguement has always been the jump from 18 to 20 needs luck.'
In a way AJ is right. It takes luck to get good walkons, which makes a big
difference when filling roster gaps. That helped me along the way, but I had
to do all the other stuff I mentioned as well. The other bit of luck is in
gameplanning but that is categorized for me under 'learning the sim'.
Date: Tue May 13 09:42:29 2008
Sender: Doc Barnes
Chris, we just don't want the tirades of a historically bad apple to spoil the
bunch, especially when they're slicing up rosters just to spite any future
coaches. It's not a good representation for new coaches.
Date: Tue May 13 12:52:55 2008
Sender: Just Oz Too
Chris --
They can have any expectation that they want, but its not a realistic one.
I jumped to S.Florida at one point when it was awful and just did a lot of D/C
recuiring with PTPs for people who wouldn't start at a lot of schools and got
things off the ground.
Then while Joslin was here, he made them a consistent winner, but even then we
were talking about five or six seasons.
Now, with a little bit of luck, like jumping into a U-Conn or Mich. State if
they are available next year, a new coach or transferring coach, could move up
pretty quickly.
Date: Tue May 13 13:26:47 2008
Sender: A Schwartz
AJ Said: 'My argument has always been the jump from 18 to 20 needs luck.'
I would argue that it is really a combination of luck, game-time coaching
skills and recruiting skills. The better a coach/recruiter you are the less
luck you need.
So perhaps for you AJ, it is all luck. :) Sorry, couldn't resist.
Date: Tue May 13 13:51:56 2008
Sender: Kyle Mayhugh
Is it possible to get from 18 to 20 without getting a big-time QB, and is it
possible to do that without walk-on luck? Maybe, I haven't watched closely
enough to see.
Date: Tue May 13 16:19:27 2008
Sender: Gregor Ellis
Yes and maybe - you can get there with a recruited DC/CB guy if you get 2-3
good training camps or 1 good breakout camp. The former is more reliable as you
can sorta predict who is more likely to develop and who to bust.
Date: Wed May 14 10:28:36 2008
Sender: Red Burley
"The former is more reliable as you can sorta predict who is more likely to
develop and who to bust."
You can?
Date: Wed May 14 14:53:42 2008
Sender: Gregor Ellis
I believe I can predict who is more likely to develop into a really good player
and who isn't. Given that we humans are so good at pattern recognition that we
occassionally see patterns where there aren't any, perhaps I'm blowing smoke.
But ... since I started favoring certain attribute mixes over others when
recruiting (and cutting) for each position, I've been much happier with my
results.
Date: Wed May 14 15:43:28 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
when you see "patterns" do you mean like tea leaves or chicken entrails?
Date: Wed May 14 15:55:12 2008
Sender: Doc Barnes
I know what Gregor is getting at and I feel there is something to seeing a
players attributes and having a feel as to how they could improve. The biggest
thing in that though is how they improve that first camp. Once that gets
settled it's almost as if you can sense what attributes they will gain in based
on the position that they are at.
Date: Thu May 15 08:34:35 2008
Sender: Red Burley
I think they mean casting runes, AJ . . .
I can follow the part about "attribute patterns", thats only logical. What I
don't see is how you can extrapolate from that to determine who will turn into
a good or great player.
That's why I'd love to have high school stats for recruits in the college sims,
so you can at least make an educated guess . . .
Date: Thu May 15 11:28:18 2008
Sender: Gregor Ellis
Entrails mostly I'd have to say...
Actually, I can't really tell who will turn out to be a good player so much as
I think I've detected patterns that indicate who is more likely to stall out
completely or bust. As with almost every thing else with this sim, its about
the likelihood of something happening adn trying to improve the odds overall
for my team.
While I don't keep as much past data as some people, its mostly the result of
looking at many seasons worth of past data for me and several teams I do track
completely (Excel is a wonderful thing, especially web queries). I believe I've
seen that certain attribute mixes tend to indicate a player who won't go
further. As I said, however, I may be imagining things or randomness in the
player dev algos may be so dominant it makes no real difference.
Date: Thu May 15 12:17:36 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
I have a pretty good eye in the Pro's... mostly because I remember what several
superstars looked like in the draft. - before they were superstars.
and when I see the same, attributes, age, training- I have been right a few
times on the draftee.
Date: Thu May 15 14:41:33 2008
Sender: Doc Barnes
The pro game seems so much harder to predict for me, but maybe I don't look
into college stats enough to know who's worth anything.
In college, I feel I've had a good grasp on this sort of thing but it is always
dependent on a players first camp. That first camp always gives me an idea of
where this player will be in the future. Now I'm not talking about predicting
who will be great or just good. I'm talking about how that player will benefit
my team to the fullest when they develop into their attributes based on my
system.
Date: Fri May 16 14:31:25 2008
Sender: Loren Smith
Just noticed in doing my SBB writeups that SC's quarterback Hamilton had a 55
yard option for a touchdown...
Date: Fri May 16 16:34:50 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
thats because, as we mentioned several times.. but were told we were wrong, if
you want your QB to run the ball more -
turn down the alteration on the "play level" for your option plays to Less.
The deciscion to pitch the ball does not appear to take into account "tackle
breaking" ability, or yardage beyond the first missed tackle-
Dolphin Simulation Games is not responsible for the content of posts.
Please report any offensive messages to help@dolphinsim.com.
