Date: Wed May 7 22:10:16 2008
Sender: Lord Bremen
Is the sim different? I'm running basically the same playbooks that are
successful for my pro team (and the ones I used successfully in Tier 2), with a
team that's not perfect but certainly not horrid, and being blown out. I have
a QB with 8 int and pretty good WRs, but he's thrown nothing but INTs. What am
I doing wrong?
Date: Wed May 7 22:37:40 2008
Sender: Henry Morgan
You've played two tremendous teams, and I have absolutely no idea what happened
against me because we've been crap in our other two games.
Date: Thu May 8 10:39:10 2008
Sender: Doc Barnes
I've noticed that the Pro and college game are so different from a coaching
standpoint that it's very difficult to use the same playbooks in each and
experience the same success from them.
I'm guessing that because of the talent level of the pros being fairly even
across the board, there's a need for a tailored gameplan. Whereas in college
it almost seems like you can have a system set up and almost always bring in
guys that work for the system.
What I've tried to do is create all of my play packages for the college game,
and then transfer them over to my pro teams. The only difference has been that
I haven't had success with alot of my schemey college offenses in the pros, so
I don't use them and try to stick to a more traditional style pro offense.
Date: Thu May 8 11:03:38 2008
Sender: Kyle Mayhugh
The sim isn't different, the players are, and thus the formulas can spit out
vastly different results.
Date: Thu May 8 11:52:53 2008
Sender: Henry Morgan
I think NC State actually did very well against Iowa State. Maybe the SEC East
is just that tough? :)
I seriously have no idea how I held that offense to 7 points. You're in a tough
conference with a tough non-conference schedule. I know this is the pot calling
the kettle black, but there's only so much coaching you can do.
Date: Thu May 8 20:03:08 2008
Sender: Lord Bremen
My offense has been ok for the most part, I only had the packages in for two
games, and the lack of scoring in the second was mainly unlucky turnovers. But
the defense is downright atrocious. I have an 8 Rs guy that's tackling at 30%.
And not much help that my only decent DL is out for the season.
Date: Thu May 8 20:18:26 2008
Sender: Henry Morgan
Ah yes...lack of depth. I've gotten used to that...always great when you go
into a season saying "ok I've got maybe 7 decent players on this side of the
ball...where should they go?"
Get used to it until you're like a 19 prestige, since you're not in the Pac-10
unless you get Texas-sized luck on walkons.
I'm on my third recruiting class but it seems like every year I'm just barely
replacing what I've lost, even though the computer and DSPN always seem to like
my recruiting classes.
Date: Fri May 9 08:53:40 2008
Sender: Gregor Ellis
"I'm on my third recruiting class but it seems like every year I'm just barely
replacing what I've lost, even though the computer and DSPN always seem to like
my recruiting classes."
You are Henry - but its underclassmen (for the most part) replacing graduating
Seniors. Which means 2-4 seasons from now you should have vastly improved
talent. Actually, I expect that your success improving the talent of your team
is the bigger part of your prestige increase last season and will help you a
lot in the next prestige recalc as well.
" I have an 8 Rs guy that's tackling at 30%."
My top OLB is the guy below and so far is only tackling at 62% so far including
1 game against a Tier II team with vastly lower talent.
M.Buckley OLB Sr 7 6 10 2 3 3 8 3 18
The sim is based entirely on probabilities of certain outcomes given certain
inputs, with a big dollop of randomness thrown in, all meant to create
statistically valid results that match historic NCAA results. On a play-by-play
basis these are based on Andy's (N-years old) evaluation and analysis of how
player abilities influence outcomes and how talent is determined.
What that means is that every player, regardless of attributes, has a chance to
vastly out-perform or under-perform his attributes on every single play. A
couple of games is not a large enough sample size for the results to start to
converge to what the guy's attributes should produce. Over the course of a
season however, a guy in the top x% of CCEL LB's in Rs will come close to the
same tackling rate as similar LBs achieve in the NCAA.
Date: Fri May 9 12:54:53 2008
Sender: Henry Morgan
Greg, I don't know where you get that I would have vastly improved talent since
most of my recruits were B level potentials and would be replacing A levels.
It doesn't matter anyway because I'm done with this shit. Fitzpatrick can have
my team for all I care, or no one can. I wish I could cut them all so no one
could have them and they could start over at 0-40 like I did and see who had
the balls to try and who had the skill to make them respectable.
Date: Fri May 9 13:09:24 2008
Sender: Kevin Caery
You actually cut all the good walk-ons from your team to spite some anonymous
future coach? That'll show 'em!
(Of course, all your best players at SC were walk-ons...)
Date: Fri May 9 14:37:02 2008
Sender: Just Oz
I've removed Henry from CCEL due to the cuts so from here on out, let's move
along.
Date: Fri May 9 14:59:22 2008
Sender: Lord Bremen
Gregor, does that mean that the sim actually is different? It certainly feels
like it is.
I also have an injury who has gotten worse three weeks in a row - never had
that happen more than once in the pros.
Date: Fri May 9 15:39:24 2008
Sender: Gregor Ellis
The Pro and College sim engine is identical for the most part and I suspect it
is the same with the differences in financial and talent rating aspects.
Doc's comment about talent levels seems to be spot on. Attribute numbers
probably aren't absolute in the sim but rather reflect relative location on the
curve of the abilities of all players in the league; that or something similar
would be consistent with the way the sim handles almost everything else and
would explain why we can change player positions without the attribute values
changing. Given that college has a broader spread of absolute talent than the
Pro game, a Sp=1 Pro player is a LOT faster than a Sp=1 college player, and
much closer to a Sp=10 Pro player (who is likely just as fast as a Sp=10
college player). So I suspect that the talents of your supporting players, and
their matchups, have more to do with success in the college game.
Date: Fri May 9 17:23:59 2008
Sender: Doc Barnes
Wow, I get home from work and see what has happened today and the worst of it
was Henry's move at SC and not my loss to Iowa State.
I just want to publicly say that what he did was one of the most ridiculous,
cry-baby, jerk-ass things I've experienced in my time in DEL. To look at his
roster and see the stuff he did is mind-boggling. I guess not everyone can
take the growing pains of building a program. I hope no one else ever does
what he did, and that something is done to reverse his screwball cuts.
As for the playbooks thing I still stand by my earlier statement that there is
a large difference in the talent distribution between the pros and college,
thus rendering playbooks somewhat inefficient to use between both areas.
College is more set up to handle the gimmicky stuff because you can exploit the
players you have that are good. In the pros, everyone is good, in some manner,
so it's not easy to use the gimmicky stuff.
Date: Fri May 9 17:28:45 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
1) attributes.
For a long time it was a relative scale, and we had re-rates every season.
The top 10% were 10, the second 10% were 9's, the third 10% were 8's.... I
guess this was a pain, though I prefered it- because it was discontinued and
the intangible area was added.
2) Doc's point.
I use the same playbooks, but I do agree.
(which is another reason mathchups are more important than
computer rankings)
In college, a star can totally rip a scrub. There is more equality in Pro.
Date: Fri May 9 18:08:58 2008
Sender: Andy Dolphin
A comment about the attributes -- the attribute scales are the same for all pro
leagues, but different for college. So, the sim is exactly the same, but maybe
your 8 Ps quarterback in CCEL is the equivalent of a 6 in the pros.
Date: Fri May 9 19:24:44 2008
Sender: John Henry
I have played both leagues, Pro and college for a while. I don't have specific
data as I just don't care to track it but here is some general observations.
--The biggest difference in my opinion is team talent. It is very easy to build
a team in the Pro's and keep it together for many years so the talent is the
'top' talent with your coaching style of player. In the college game you turn
your roster over every 3-4 years and every team has some weakness in a
position. You have to settle for lesser talent or modify the schemes to exploit
or cover up that weakness.
--Try running the option in the Pro's. Because of the better talent, even
though the engine seems to be the same, you will get consistantly worse results
in the pro's. I kind of like this as it mirrors real life.
--I definately play different offense and defense in the pros. I actually find
I change less game day to game day in the pros because each team in college has
a different scheme. In the Pro's look at the Rhodes, Cullen etc teams that
dominate. Each had a simple formula that they repeated in each league. Not
taking away thier ability but each team in each league was a clone of the other
leagues. They obviously figured out the pro game and ran it to perfection. (I
have yet to unlock that secret even copying thier playbooks)
Just my .02 after many hundred games in each arena
Date: Fri May 9 19:37:10 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
John-
I have to disagree a little. I agree, There were a lot of people that
attempted to clone them with some success, and there is sort of a herd
mentality. I studied them a bit myself (but like you have rarely had a decent
running game)
That said they used to run run run, I believe we are seeing a little bit of
a passing re-surgence right now not seen since Seth Clark teams used to throw
for 60 TDs a year. Several of the top playoff teams in Pro are throwing for
4600+ yards. A year or so ago, you just didn't see that much.
I'm just saying. I think Pro Football has been getting a little of a bum rap.
I really enjoy the leagues I'm in. You can't build a winner overnight in EAFL,
it has a good group of coaches.
In IFL, you can- but it is quite a bit different with the cap, and I don't
think anyone has quite mastered the evolution. (10 different champs in 11
years)
Date: Fri May 9 20:52:03 2008
Sender: Dennis Berg
That would be 12 out of the last 13 years with a different winning coach in
IFL. The 10 out of 11 was the number before the cap was introduced.
Date: Sun May 11 14:23:31 2008
Sender: Just Oz
I would be willing to volunteer to make it 13 of the last 14 years since the
Colts have now made it to the 2nd round of playoffs.
I'm nervious that not next year, but the year after, I'm going to have a rude
cap awakening.
Date: Sun May 11 19:57:41 2008
Sender: Lord Bremen
The Cap is a pain, but it hasn't really bothered me much. You can't spend much
money on bit players (e.g. linemen/wrs/etc.), but I never did anyway. It also
makes drafting a bunch more important.
Date: Mon May 12 08:54:02 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
around 85% of all long contracts, 7 years or more- don't make it past the 3rd
season. (usually coach quits)
It's nice in IFL, we don't have to deal with that as much, and a dedicated
coach can actually place a bid on a good AA player and have a chance to get
them.
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