Date: Tue Jul 22 22:53:22 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
"When we adopted the surge, we were losing the war in Iraq, and I stood up and
said I would rather lose a campaign than lose a war," McCain said in New
Hampshire
uhhh? say what. the surge was last summer of 2007.
So we were losing up til then? I thought things were going great?
"I think they're in the last throes, if you will, of the insurgency." --Vice
President Dick Cheney, on the Iraq insurgency, June 20, 2005
* Oct. 25, 2006 - "It's my responsibility to provide the American people with a
candid assessment on the way forward ... Absolutely, we're winning." - Bush.
* Dec , 2006 - "I believe that the goal of a secure, stable and democratic Iraq
is within reach." - U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates during a visit to
Baghdad.
“It’s clear that the end is very much in sight.” [ABC, 4/9/03]
John McCain
Gee.... all this time I thought we were winning, only now to find out we were
losing up until the surge.
LOL... what a bunch of bullshit.
Date: Wed Jul 23 05:46:45 2008
Sender: William Johnson
We 'won' the TET offensive, when it happened. But, the media portrayed it as a
stunning loss. Now, you take several quotes (out of context) to achieve...
what? Maybe you're just venting and feel frustrated that the idea of preventing
terrorists from having safe haven may work. Those sweet terrorists... they just
need a home and they'll leave everyone alone and live in peace and harmony.
Sometimes I don't get you, AJ. You complain that we remove Saddam from his
ruthless power, then complain when we don't remove others from their ruthless
power. You complain when we fight terrorism and things don't go perfect. Then
you complain when we start gaining ground on both the ideals that terrorism
seeks and the physical struggle.
Date: Wed Jul 23 05:57:11 2008
Sender: Jeff Luddingsmash
Iraq was hardly a safe haven for terrorists William. That's really not what
invading Iraq was about.
WMD... fine. Removing Saddam... okay. Taking down a terrorist safe haven...
sorry but no.
Date: Wed Jul 23 06:05:29 2008
Sender: William Johnson
Sorry, Jeff. I couldn't tell by those out of context quotes whether he was
'only' talking about Iraq or if he included Afghanistan in there, too. In which
case the part of my rant about a safe haven would be true.
Date: Wed Jul 23 06:56:20 2008
Sender: Jeff Luddingsmash
Got'cha. Sorry for the confusion.
Perko, I think Mr.Johnson has a point about "out of context quotes". Let us
remember that these quotes were said by different people in different
circumstances.
Hey, maybe this quote illustrates that McCain is capable of thinking for
himself, and that he's not afraid to go outside of the party line. That's a
good thing isn't it?
Date: Wed Jul 23 08:16:06 2008
Sender: Chris Blackman
Not to hi-jack the thread - but the real concern shoud be that we are
dangersouly close, it would appear, to losing in Afghanistan.
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080720/general_afghanistan_080720/20080720?hub=SEAfghanistan
CB
Date: Wed Jul 23 08:20:30 2008
Sender: Chris Blackman
As a point of interest, Canada's new Chief of Defence Staff (top ranking
soldier) Gen. Walter Natynczyk, served recently as a senior Commander in Iraq
as part of routine exchance programs between Canada-US.
CB
Date: Wed Jul 23 10:55:53 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
"Now, you take several quotes (out of context)"
How the hell is that "out of context"? Were they talking about a football
game, I'm fairly certain they were talking about the Iraq war.
That is one of the most retarded things I have ever heard.
Since this war started we have been told by Republicans how
incredibly awesome it's going and how we are kicking ass all
the way. We have been hearing that since 2003.
Now all of a sudden, they need to use something against Obama, and guess what
- we were losing the whole time.. But now we are winning!!!!
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here.
Date: Wed Jul 23 12:49:35 2008
Sender: Jeff Luddingsmash
Context: "the fleshy fibrous body of the pileus in mushrooms"
Date: Wed Jul 23 13:18:05 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
These are the kind of things I always notice with Republican politics...
they can say somethig like:
"without a doubt Iraq has WMDS" live on TV, recorded in a million places
then like two years later the same guy will say:
"I don't think anyone said with certaintly Iraq had WMD's".
and despite the absolute obviousness of the contradiction they will claim it
was out of context, or they STILL NEVER SAID IT! right to the face of the
American Public.
....... and 1/2 of our citizen, some on this board will find a way to somehow
believe them. It's akin to brainwashing.
Date: Wed Jul 23 13:29:57 2008
Sender: Jeff Luddingsmash
Trix are for kids... (brainwashing flashback)
AJ, I don't really pay that much attention to what politicians say, but I can
see how that might happen in politics.
That being said, the quotes listed earlier are by different people, so is it
hardly surprising that they aren't consistent.
Date: Wed Jul 23 14:28:27 2008
Sender: Red Burley
AJ, there is an old joke that can simplify things for you:
Q: How can you tell when a politician is lying?
A: His lips move.
Anyone who actually believes anything that a politician says in front of a tv
camera is mentally unfit to be allowed to vote.
Date: Wed Jul 23 15:16:13 2008
Sender: Brian Pate
My two cents on this one (no idea why I'm finally in the mood to post on it)...
Cent #1 - lol, Red, dead on there
Cent #2 - amen to that Blackie, a friend of mien at work and I have been
talking about that for months now
Date: Wed Jul 23 18:25:53 2008
Sender: William Johnson
" I'm fairly certain they were talking about the Iraq war. "
When you're completely certain, I'll take back my statement. Until then,
what part of the war were they talking about (for certain)?
Date: Wed Jul 23 20:12:33 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
maybe they just meant "with absolute certainty we are winning" on that
Wednesday, on a 2 block region of Fallujah, for a few hours...
Date: Wed Jul 23 20:36:04 2008
Sender: Just Oz
AJ -- What is the context of the McCain quote that you have above?
Given the timing, I suspect it's talking about the initial taking of Iraq.
As for the other quotes, McCain was considered a pain in the butt because he
didn't buy into all the things that Cheney et al were saying.
It's pretty disengenious for you to somehow pretend that McCain thought things
were going well pre-surge. That's simply not backed up by facts.
Did other Republicans say those things .. yep .. and McCain was his usual (pain
in the butt) independent self and told them it wasn't working and that we
needed more troops.
Date: Wed Jul 23 21:51:29 2008
Sender: William Johnson
* Oct. 25, 2006 - "It's my responsibility to provide the American people with a
candid assessment on the way forward ... Absolutely, we're winning." - Bush.
AND “It’s clear that the end is very much in sight.” [ABC, 4/9/03] John McCain
So, you can say with absolute certainty that they were talking about 'Iraq'
only? Didn't we go into Iraq in 03? How could he say we had the 'end in sight'
so quickly, if talking only about Iraq? And, Bush? I'd betcha he was talking
about the 'war on terror'. But, if you can show both were talking only about
Iraq I'll concede the point. Until then, you're using out of context quotes to
further an agenda you have against whatever you have it against.
Date: Wed Jul 23 23:18:22 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
I'm not a human encyclopedia. I googled "Iraq War Quotes", simply because I
know I have personally heard them say we are winning in Iraq since the damn
thing started. I was right.
Now I'll try to find the same ones... and put them in context.
1) This was Dick Cheney on Larry King, speaking directly about the insurgency
in Iraq: "I think they're in the last throes, if you will, of the insurgency."
June 20, 2005
2) "It's my responsibility to provide the American people with a candid
assessment on the way forward ... Absolutely, we're winning" This was a GW
Bush, Press Conference-
The Question WAS :Are we winning?
Here is his whole response,
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/10/20061025.html
and the parts I see:
"Absolutely, we're winning. Al Qaeda is on the run."
We're winning, and we will win, unless we leave before the job is done. And the
crucial battle right now is Iraq."
There is quote after quote of GW and other saying "we are winning in Iraq"
other than the two above. The fact, you are pretending you've never heard
anyone say that is just silly.
I can't find the reference to the McCain quote....
so I guess you win. I can't 100% prove, with absolute certainty that John
McCain ever said "we are winning in Iraq" before.
Everyone else just did... over and over.
Date: Wed Jul 23 23:38:58 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
"And by golly, they are winning, my friends. They are winning. They are
winning"
How about this... video from the tonight show from February of McCain saying we
are winning in Iraq.
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/01/mccain-by-golly-were-winning-in-iraq/
and if thats too recent, these are all John McCain quotes-
a)“You know, when you say it won’t be difficult, whenever you send young
Americans into harm’s way, it’s going to be difficult. And we will lose
American lives. So that said, I believe that it will not be nearly as difficult
as some allege.” [NBC, 9/22/02]
b) “Because I know that as successful as I believe we will be, and I believe
that the success will be fairly easy, we will still lose some American young
men or women.” [CNN,9/24/02]
c) “But the point is that, one, we will win this conflict. We will win it
easily.” [MSNBC, 1/22/03]
d) “I have no qualms about our strategic plans. … I thought we were very
successful in Afghanistan.” [Hartford Courant, 3/5/03]
e) “I have said a long time that reconstruction of Iraq would be a long, long,
difficult process. … But the conflict, the major conflict is over … The regime
change is accomplished.” [Fox News, 6/11/03]
f) “I believe that this conflict is still going to be relatively short.” [NBC,
3/30/03]
Who cares about the context. What you have is a guy who goes with the flow,
then claims he is some independent thinker, and new the right answers. He is
no different than any other part of the Bush Administration.
Date: Thu Jul 24 06:14:09 2008
Sender: William Johnson
" Who cares about the context. "
Exactly my point. You don't and it shows during all your I-hate-Bush/co
rants. Don't get mad at me because I called you on your misleading claims. Why
do you think I don't trust anything that you say? Why do you think I just razz
you back when you go off on these rants? Because I don't trust you to tell the
truth. It's like the boy who cried 'wolf' one too many times. Eventually,
you'll be telling the truth and no one will believe you.
Date: Thu Jul 24 08:29:52 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
I guess we are from different worlds..
when I see a video of John McCain saying "we are winning" and they have been
talking about Iraq before and after that statment.
I assume he means we are winning in Iraq.
Communication must be very complicated in your world.
Date: Thu Jul 24 08:37:37 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
PS... everyone of the quotes is cited. (like my supposed lies always are)
Thats the sad world of a conservative, the truth is easily laid before them
on so many topics. All they have to do is look for themselves....... but they
would rather deny and stay ignorant, while forcing their opponents to try to
find 100% indisputable truth on any topic always looking for the slightest grey
area to support their fragile case. Even in this case no matter how stupid it
is, SAYING THOSE QUOTES AREN'T ABOUT IRAQ????????????
like maybe they are about a flag football game, maybe a dart competition,
perhaps the Olympics?
(sort of like when a few barrels30 year old mustard gas that we gave to Iraq
was supposedly now the WMD's vindicating all the pre-war lies. LOL)
Is just not worthy of anymore of my responses.
Date: Thu Jul 24 10:05:37 2008
Sender: Jay Schlegel
AJ, this is just the usual game by those in power and those who support them:
make those who care about 'the truth' and 'the facts' and other such
intangible, ultimately unproveable things, have to come up with Irrefutable
Evidence. There is no such thing (remember the OJ trial -- many people thought
there was irrefutable evidence, well, except for those who mattered most eh?)
Context. Definitions. Technicalities. Exceptions. Nuances. Meanwhile,
those in power continue to consolidate their power while those who oppose them
run around in circles instead of actually consolidating their own power. It is
a shell game, or at the least a chess game against masters who are thinking
10/20/50/100 moves ahead. There is no solution to these he-said/he-didn't-say
arguments -- AND THAT IS EXACTLY THE POINT OF THEM. No solution = delay = more
of same = business as usual; and business-as-usual means more money for those
currently making it. Most folks indeed get fed up with this crap, but they
tune-out instead of doing anything differently, and that is why we get what we
get from our elected leaders.
Same delay tactics are common everywhere where huge sums of short-term money
are on the line. Global warming? "Gosh, we'd really like to help, but you'll
have to prove it beyond a shadow of any doubt before we'll do anything about it
(which you cannot possibly do, because there will always be some tiny level of
statistical uncertainty), and even if you do somehow prove we are contributing
to global warming, AND that global warming is actually a bad thing, you will
have to force us to change our practices because laws which we helped to
implement require us to maximize our profits using any/all means necessary so
we will fight you every step of the way." Now, someone will point out all the
corporations which are doing something about global warming -- that is because
they realize it is better for their bottom line to do so.
And if someone comes up with the exact in-context quote that someone lied about
the Iraq war? So what. Unless/Until there are impeachment proceedings, or war
crimes trials, or assassin's bullets to dodge, or armed insurgents at the door
(here mind you, not half a world away), or [gasp!] money not being made, it
doesn't really matter does it -- and those in power know it. "Let them eat
cake... or maybe buy an iphone instead."
Date: Thu Jul 24 11:46:34 2008
Sender: Joshua MacOscar
If one Republican said it, then all Republicans said it.
You are now entering a No Complexity Zone!!!
Date: Thu Jul 24 12:30:51 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
Jay....
your right.
It just bugs me that after hearing "we've been winning" for the past 6 years
from the Republican side.
I'm now essentially being called a liar and am told I never heard that.
Date: Thu Jul 24 13:15:49 2008
Sender: P Kenny
Okay, McCain is a turd. I can agree with that.
Obama ranted for months that the Surge wouldn't work, and then ranted that it
was not working. Now Obama acts like he was never against it.
Is he a bigger turd or smaller turd than McCain? That's the question for
November.
Date: Thu Jul 24 21:32:18 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
hmm...
Obama was on Katie Couric yesterday, I've never heard him say he supported the
troop surge. Yesterday, again he said he didn't like the tactic.
Now here is the part that is too complicated for the average republican to
figure out.
Obama said, the surge was succesfull in curbing the violence in Iraq, but
also said it's not the tactic he would have used or supports. He has been
indisputably clear on this.
That concept that there are multiple ways to do things, some better than
others... is too much for our retarded political landscape to comprehend.
Date: Fri Jul 25 04:59:53 2008
Sender: P Kenny
Corky,
Obama railed against the surge, saying it would not work. For months he railed
against the surge, saying it is not working.
Now, faced with indisputable evidence that it has been successful, he refuses
to admit he was wrong. The One simply can not be wrong.
Instead, according to you anyway, he says there were better ways to achieve our
goals at that point in time. Did the One bother to outline these alternative
tactics, or are we simply to assume again that he is a genius, because he says
so? Do you recall the One outlining the alternatives to the Surge when he was
against it before he was before it? Other than Cut-And-Run? Are you really
going to deny he's been preaching Cut-And-Run until about 4 weeks ago?
Frankly, admitting that you gained insight watching Couric conduct an interview
is hilarious.
Date: Fri Jul 25 06:33:51 2008
Sender: William Johnson
" * Oct. 25, 2006 - "It's my responsibility to provide the American people with
a candid assessment on the way forward ... Absolutely, we're winning." - Bush.
"
Just as I thought. Taken out of context and manipulated to further your
I-hate-Bush agenda. I found this statement from a press conference on that date
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/10/20061025.html Here's the quote
you provided (in more entirity);
"It's my responsibility to provide the American people with a candid
assessment on the way forward. There is tough fighting ahead. The road to
victory will not be easy. We should not expect a simple solution. The fact that
the fighting is tough does not mean our efforts in Iraq are not worth it."
Your "Absolutely, we're winning" quote was a response to a question (10
minutes later) after Bush made this statement:
"Afghanistan was a front in this war against the terrorists. Iraq is now the
central front in the war against the terrorists. This war is more than just
finding people and bringing them to justice; this war is an ideological
conflict between a radical ideology that can't stand freedom, and moderate,
reasonable people that hope to live in a peaceful society."
Which was part of the answer to someone asking if this war is comparable to
WWII and if we were winning. After that answer someone simply asked "are we
winning?". Which was replied to with:
"Absolutely, we're winning. Al Qaeda is on the run. As a matter of fact, the
mastermind, or the people who they think is the mastermind of the September the
11th attacks is in our custody. We've now got a procedure for this person to go
on trial, to be held for his account. Most of al Qaeda that planned the attacks
on September the 11th have been brought to justice."
Thanks for keeping us informed on the "lies" coming from Bush/co. Do you get
paid to parrot things like that, or is this pro bono?
Oh, BTW, Here's a statement you convieniantly left out of your inspirational
quotes on the war situation. A paragraph after the 'responsibility' statement
he said this:
"We must not fall prey to the sophisticated propaganda by the enemy, who is
trying to undermine our confidence and make us believe that our presence in
Iraq is the cause of all its problems."
Who is he talking about?
Date: Fri Jul 25 06:42:18 2008
Sender: William Johnson
" “It’s clear that the end is very much in sight.” [ABC, 4/9/03] John McCain "
This quote was made 19 days after the beginning of the process to remove
Saddam. Was he talking about the 'war on terror' or the 'Saddam removal
process'? It certainly couldn't be about the situation we currently have in
Iraq, because that situation did not even exsist at the time. But, minor
details such as that shouldn't get in the way of the select few and their
mission of making everyone hate the ideals of the war on terror.
Date: Fri Jul 25 06:50:26 2008
Sender: William Johnson
And, finally, (finally;) on "Jul 23 23:38:58 2008 Sender: AJ Perko " your
a,b,c,d quotes from McCain were from BEFORE the invasion started. Quote f was
10 days after the beginning of the invasion and e was only 3 months later. How
McCain could know we were winning a conflict that hadn't started yet is beyond
me. But, as long as you've got quotes to prove he said the war in Iraq was
going wonderfully then it must be true.
Thanks for playing the "propoganda parrot" game. I look forward to the next
episode.
Date: Fri Jul 25 10:08:52 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
so the quote before the war were equally disasterously wrong.
Since he said it would be easy.. no problem.
He obviously is an idiot who knows nothing about the world or war.
so much for his vast experience.
Go vote for him.
Date: Fri Jul 25 12:21:15 2008
Sender: Jeff Luddingsmash
AJ you are totally right.
Date: Fri Jul 25 12:21:36 2008
Sender: Jeff Luddingsmash
AJ you are totally wrong.
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