Date: Thu Jul 10 20:43:50 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
Phil Gramm
"We have sort of become a nation of whiners. You just hear this constant
whining, complaining about a loss of competitiveness.
mental recession...."
Coming from a guy whose wife worked for Enron and cashed in 1.5 million in
stock, while Phil snuck a few pages into the 384 billion dollar Omnibus Bill,
which excluded Enron's futures contracts from Government and FEC oversight.
I don't care if he is 70, if I ever bump into this a-hole, I'll show him a
whiner as I kick his old ass.
Date: Fri Jul 11 05:22:24 2008
Sender: William Johnson
I wish I had a way of compiling all the 'classic' statements that are made
on this board. This has to be among the best. You (being a prime rugby player)
want to kick a 70 year-old's ass because you disagree that he says Americans
aren't as competitive? How competitive would it be to kick a 70 year-old's ass?
You may not like or agree with what he says, but apparently, it's true. At
least he's not threatening to cut the nuts off McCain because he wants fathers
to participate in the raising of children.
Date: Fri Jul 11 06:39:20 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
If someone is so pompous they can make millions off of illegal legislation to
finance their wife at ENRON OF ALL PLACES... and then say the economy is good
and Americans are whiners- he is an a-hole. I don't care how old he is- if he
had said that comment to me he would be laying on the ground.
He is either the most detached stupid man in Washington or just the biggest
liar.
Bush has destroyed the US economy, endagered Americans internationally, and all
but wiped out the middle class.
Date: Fri Jul 11 06:48:14 2008
Sender: James Mathis
"Illegal legislation"?
Date: Fri Jul 11 20:45:31 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
If anyone would have cared to actually look at the whole deal with Enron and
his wife it was full of unethical activity, probably illegal.
But like so much the past 10 years, no one really does anything about it.
Date: Sat Jul 12 06:14:31 2008
Sender: William Johnson
" it was full of unethical activity, probably illegal "
If you want to talk unethical activity and probably illegal, let's talk
about the Clinton administration and/or Clinton himself during his entire
political career.
Let's look at facts for a second... Gramm is a financial wizard. He's done
economics all his life. He knows what he's talking about. Albeit, from a more
financially secure spot than most of us, but everytime Bill Gates speaks he
talks from the same (or higher) financial level, too. Here's the next thing,
Gramm says the nation has become a nation of whiners because we can't get
through a minor blip in our financial system without whining. What is the
response? More whining. I think that proves the guy is right...again. He may
not be liked because he made a fortune by investing better than some, but he
certainly knows what he's talking about.
Date: Sat Jul 12 06:47:32 2008
Sender: Karim Cheaib
i heard he is the chairman of mcain's campaign, that cant be good for him....
Date: Sat Jul 12 07:19:11 2008
Sender: William Johnson
It is certainly better than having Jesse Jackson threatening to cut your nuts
off because you support the 'family structure'. But, you probably won't hear
about that, with all the equality in the media.
Date: Sat Jul 12 08:05:54 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
Since when does contributing to the subprime mortgage meltdown make you a
financial wizard, or are you referring to his million he made with his
Pro-Enron legislation?
It's easy to say "stop whining" when your the one who screwed everything up.
The last 6 months the average American is worth 1000.00 less, we have lost
438,000 jobs.- and the housing market is in the gutter.(see Phil Gramms,
Commodity Futures Modernization Act)
how can a "wizard" like Phil Gramm think this is a good thing?
Yet Republicans like Phil Gramm keep saying...
"Iraq War is great, Economy is great... it's all the media"
"Iraq War is great, Economy is great... it's all the media"
"Iraq War is great, Economy is great... it's all the media"
"Iraq War is great, Economy is great... it's all the media"
"Iraq War is great, Economy is great... it's all the media"
"Iraq War is great, Economy is great... it's all the media"
repeat....
it's been the whole mantra for 8 years, look at the sky and tell America it's
really red, not blue... repeat it enough and half the country will beleive you.
- and now people are starting to see through the bullcrap- so they resort to
"stop whining".
thats why Republicans lost the House, the Senate and soon the Presidency.
Sadly the damage has already been done.
The American people have been raped and ravaged the past 8 years, while a few
wealthy corporations have essentially created the biggest differential between
executives and workers the world has known since the pyramids were built.
Date: Sat Jul 12 08:22:57 2008
Sender: Brian Dust
Certainly there have been unsavoury elements from the folks who pushed
sub-prime mortgages, but individuals who took loans to buy a house yet lacked
the ability to repay those loans deserve blame too.
Date: Sat Jul 12 08:29:13 2008
Sender: Brian Dust
Rhetoric can fatigue an audience quickly unless they're in line to drink the
Kool Ade - disclaim and deflect has no place in a conversation based on merit.
It's not as though it's a case of either, or. If Phil Gramm is a douche, it
doesn't mean Bill Clinton isn't, or vice versa.
Given the thread was started to protest Phil Gramm's conduct, introducting Bill
Clinton to the thread is unhelpful.
Date: Sat Jul 12 08:42:36 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
I almost primarily blame the borrowers for defaulted loans. But the borrowers
can deal with it.
You move out, foreclolse, declare bankruptcy... start over.
It was the "Commodity Futures Modernization Act", which Bill Gramm snuck into a
384 billion dollar Omnibus bill, 2 days after the courts were deciding
Bush/Gore that laid the groundwork for the massive system failure.
Gramms bill essentially kicked Accounting Firms out of the office, to say
and allowed big banks to cook the books as much as needed (see>Countrywide).
Gramm was also critical in deregulating much of the post depression fire wall
which seperated Commercial Banks, Securities Exchanges etc from merging into
mega-corps.
My favorite part of Gramms bill was the measure which "exempted energy trading
from Regulatory Oversight" GRAMM CREATED ENRON!! on his wife's lobbying (an
Enron Executive)
But the biggest thing was this now allowed the big players to act without
Credit Default Swaps.
Credit Default Swaps are essentially insurance policies to cover their
loans...
After this legislation, lending was run like a free for all casino- and we
have seen the results of this.
Thank you for Enron and the Mortgage Meltdown... you finacial wizard, Phil
Gramm.
Date: Sat Jul 12 08:48:49 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
Ps...
the 90's went pretty well, 2008 is a nightmare. Thats why we aren't talking
about Bill Clinton.
Date: Sat Jul 12 09:01:47 2008
Sender: Brian Dust
AJ, you seem rather blase about declaring bankruptcy.
Also, a contributor to the sub-prime mess is the securitization of those loans.
When institutions don't know their customers, trouble ensues. The
compensation model for originating loans is also to blame.
Date: Sat Jul 12 09:14:57 2008
Sender: Brian Dust
Credit default swaps are only a significant hedgy as long as your partner
holding the swap are fiscally strong.
Date: Sat Jul 12 10:56:47 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
Brian-
thats why the banking industry was regulated and had oversight. Here is a
great article documenting Phil Gramms role
http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2008/07/foreclosure-phil.html
As for bankruptcy, I am blase.
Corporations constantly declare bankruptcy, (or get government bailouts if
there is a Republican President). Often times leaving consumers out $1000's.
Yet when an individual looks at bankruptcy he is somehow a loser.
screw them, the tool is there - use it if you need too.
Date: Sat Jul 12 11:04:07 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
"The compensation model for originating loans is also to blame."
What are you talking about?
The 2% commission a mortgage professional makes?
I hope your referring to something else.
because thats the blame shifting cop out, the real answer is below:
---------
The subprime collapse is simple, it's not a complex thing.
and Here is the Answer:
How much money does the CEO of Countrywide walk away with when the company goes
belly up?
************** 110 million dollars. ***************
gee, they really paid the price for poor business didn't they?
Date: Sat Jul 12 11:10:14 2008
Sender: Brian Dust
AJ, in part, when an individual's paid to originate a loan, with minimal
concern about an individual's ability to repay that loan, it is a weakness in
the system.
Same thing if the lending institution is primarily concerned with securitizing
that loan, parcelling it with others, and getting it off the books.
Date: Sat Jul 12 11:18:11 2008
Sender: Brian Dust
AJ, also, Angelo Mozilo's compensation package was obscene, if not fraudulent.
It's still not an either, or, situation, where if the pay at the top of the
lending institutions is part of the problem, it means there weren't problems
elsewhere.
In addition, it's not as though shareholders of Countrywide Financial are
laughing during this sub-prime meltdown.
Date: Sat Jul 12 11:29:06 2008
Sender: Brian Dust
AJ, interesting article!
Among other things, it's a great illustration of the odious nature of riders.
Knowing McCain looks to Gramm as his primary economic advisor is alarming.
The removal of the firewall seems more coincidental, rather than contributory
to the problem.
Date: Sat Jul 12 13:08:20 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
an originator is an order taker.
I've been a licensed broker since 2004, I ran my own company in 2006-2007 and
had about 5 people under me.
If someone comes to you with an application, they provide the information they
want to.
It is your job to find a program they fit in. A mortgage broker is not a
financial advisor, not a financial planner, some claim they are.... until the
liability comes up.
If a bank say we will give you a 100% financed 2 year adjustable loan and all
you need is a 620 credit score -NO QUESTIONS ASKED.
and the borrower, has the scores and chooses not to disclose any information.
(self employed, tips etc.. plenty of reasons) then you can't hold the
originator responsible.
The Originator connects the borrower with the program.period.
The underwriter at the bank verifies the information and provides any
exceptions. The originator is simply paid for putting A & B together- Nothing
else.
Bottom Line is-
The banks created the programs, knowing the top echelon would get rich no
matter what in the end.
The bank underwriter is responsible for approving the loan. There is nothing
an orignator says or does, that holds any bearing until the underwriter puts it
in writing.
If a person made a bad investment or bit off more then they could chew... too
bad. They get hurt- and the bank gets hurt.
Blaming a broker instead of the borrower or lender is just the easiest way to
point fingers, because we have the least financial defense.
Date: Sat Jul 12 13:10:50 2008
Sender: Brian Dust
AJ, my terminology was incorrect. I used 'originator' when 'underwriter' was
intended.
Date: Sat Jul 12 13:13:47 2008
Sender: Brian Dust
AJ, yes, those at the top usually prosper. It speaks as much to the skewed
nature of executive compensation as a general theme as it does to somehing
specifically related to the sub-prime fiasco.
The frustrating thing is, the establishment has sophisms to put forth when
times are great to justify the compensation, and can produce others when times
are difficult.
Date: Sat Jul 12 20:50:42 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
Honestly.... I feel bad for some of the underwriters too. Most of them really
just verified that the info fell under pre-set guidelines, they really didn't
so risk analysis. Those guys maybe made 50-60K per year.
Somebody somewhere created the programs, thats who should be in trouble.
It's sort of a shame, it's gone so far now in the other direction there are
sucessful, responsible business owners, restaurant workers, entreprenuers etc..
who are having a terrible time trying to finance because they aren't W2 filers.
Thats one of the saddest groups in the foreclosure mess. The people that
maybe took a 5,7,10 yr ARM. Didn't do anything wrong, maybe even did
everything right. But now they can't refinance because all the programs they
qualified for are gone.
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