Date: Wed May 14 21:09:47 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
If were gonna spend millions on Barry Bonds, and millions on Clintons BJ, I
say you let me watch those Spygate tapes... and I'll decided how bad they are.
Date: Thu May 15 05:58:15 2008
Sender: Kevin Caery
That cranky old guy needs a nap...
Date: Thu May 15 08:50:32 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
He's a diehard football fan-
and now that I heard the Patriots had tapes of the Steelers in the one AFC
championship game...
it's time Goodall gets out of bed with Belichek and lets the public make thier
own deciscion on how "harmless" this was.
Date: Thu May 15 09:35:55 2008
Sender: Kevin Caery
ESPN played all the tapes in their entirety on the air... not much there,
really, and I don't see what the "public" has to do with this. The public can
be turned off by the perceived lack of transparency by the NFL or whatever, but
it's an NFL organizational issue, not a public one that Congress needs to be
wasting its time on. Those tapes never won any games for the Patriots, the
players on the field did, and I'm pretty sure the Steelers ended up getting
their Super Bowl too.
Date: Thu May 15 11:29:34 2008
Sender: Chris Oaks
Hey, Kevin, I've got an idea. Since having inside information into someone's
playbook and situational strategies don't help the opposing team win, why don't
you go ahead and publish your CCEL Wake Forest orders on the forums. It won't
hurt anything, right?
Date: Thu May 15 11:30:36 2008
Sender: Chris Oaks
Sorry to be an ass, there, but you don't really think they'd bother doing it
for seven years straight if it didn't give them an advantage, do you?
Date: Thu May 15 12:09:15 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
and Barry Bonds was soooo important.
So ESPN played 7 tapes? wow- I didn't have that channel. Did they play the
destroyed ones too?
Q. Commissioner Roger Goodell has said the illicit videotaping didn’t help
much. Do you have a reaction to that?
Matt Walsh: A. Well, I gave him the piece of information that I gave to you
about the conversation I had with a quarterback who told me that the first time
it was used, at least 75 percent of the time it was successful.
yep..... had no effect, just knew the plays 75% of the time.
Date: Thu May 15 12:31:29 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3396731
Date: Thu May 15 12:42:56 2008
Sender: Kevin Caery
"Hey, Kevin, I've got an idea. Since having inside information into someone's
playbook and situational strategies don't help the opposing team win, why don't
you go ahead and publish your CCEL Wake Forest orders on the forums. It won't
hurt anything, right?"
I think a more appropriate analogy would be showing you my scrimmage results.
I'm not saying the Patriots didn't think they were getting some minor
competitive advantage, I just don't believe any of their success comes as a
result of this petty form of cheating, and I REALLY don't believe our Congress
should be wasting any time on it.
Date: Thu May 15 12:46:02 2008
Sender: Kevin Caery
And I find Matt Walsh to be about as trustworthy a witness as Brian McNamee.
Pub-hungry axe-grinder...
Date: Thu May 15 13:03:54 2008
Sender: Kevin Caery
Also, frankly, much of this stuff that Walsh describes sounds legal, and shows
more than anything the obsessive preparation that Belichick put into his
gameplanning:
"On average, when you're scouting a team, we'd do anywhere from 60 to 70
cut-ups on offense, 40, 50 cut-ups on defense. Special teams, you're making
another 10 to 15 tapes," Walsh told The Times.
"When Belichick came along, we added even more to the preparation. We were
doing more cut-ups, and we were also coming into the age of digital technology,
too. So we were able to attach statistics to the video, on computers. The great
thing about technology, it's supposed to make things easier, but in a sense it
creates more work for you."
...
"The line of reasoning that we would give to other teams for why we need a
third camera setup was, 'Well, our coaches want to have a tight shot of the
kicker and the holder ... exchange just to go over with the guys in meetings.
You know, they want a tight shot, you know, of the quarterback, you know, just
to go over the quarterback's footwork and mechanics in meetings,'" said Walsh,
who mentioned Patriots video coordinator Jimmy Dee as one of the superiors who
coached him.
"If I was in the end zone, we would say, 'Well, we just want to have two end
zone shots of the game because our coaches like always seeing the view of our
players' backs.' "
I guess I can just as easily see all this as something Belichick thought up
and wanted to keep secret for purely proprietary reasons: once another team
knows how you're planning, they go out and hire some video guys and do the same
thing, and then everyone's doing it and there's no advantage anymore. And it
was probably kind of a gray area at the time, with technology always a step
ahead of the rules, and once a practice becomes common knowledge it's easier to
regulate it. But now they've been publicly chastised and penalized, and
everyone's going to be watching them from now on, so I'm with Goodell when he
says this case is closed.
Date: Thu May 15 13:47:06 2008
Sender: Chris Oaks
"I guess I can just as easily see all this as something Belichick thought up
and wanted to keep secret for purely proprietary reasons: once another team
knows how you're planning, they go out and hire some video guys and do the same
thing, and then everyone's doing it and there's no advantage anymore."
You're saying that they are stealing signals and keeping it a secret so teams
won't then later decide to steal their signals? That's hilarious.
"And it was probably kind of a gray area at the time, with technology always a
step
ahead of the rules, and once a practice becomes common knowledge it's easier to
regulate it. "
Okay, but they sent out a memo in recent seasons telling people not to record
signals, and he did it anyway. It was no longer a "gray area" when he got
busted for it. He blatantly continued recording team's signals so they can then
in the future recognize the formations called in conjuction with those signals,
and make their own adjustments accordingly.
Date: Thu May 15 13:54:33 2008
Sender: Kevin Caery
"You're saying that they are stealing signals and keeping it a secret so teams
won't then later decide to steal their signals?"
Those tapes were about more than stealing signals, they were ultimately about
providing a more comprehensive assessment of an opponent's tendencies which can
be broken down in greater detail these days thanks to the wonders of
technology. Belichick knew he had a competitive advantage that was not
completely illegal the entire time he did it, and heck yeah he wanted to keep
that to himself.
"Okay, but they sent out a memo in recent seasons telling people not to record
signals, and he did it anyway. It was no longer a 'gray area' when he got
busted for it. He blatantly continued recording team's signals so they can then
in the future recognize the formations called in conjuction with those signals,
and make their own adjustments accordingly."
And they got punished. And didn't win the Super Bowl. End of story, Specter
and the rest of the Patriots/Belichick haters need to move on with their lives.
Date: Thu May 15 14:17:51 2008
Sender: Chris Oaks
* I have no problem with you saying that people need to get over it.
* I have no problem with the idea of a team trying to figure out their
opponent's tendencies using legally filmed game footage.
I just can't get past this statement by you:
"I just don't believe any of their success comes as a result of this petty form
of cheating."
THEY HAD A FREAKING DECODER RING for their opponent's offense and defense,
which I don't think should just be blown off as a factor in their success, or
in any other team who tried doing the same thing.
Anyways, I agree to disagree. Cool?
Date: Thu May 15 14:48:21 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
So now whats wrong with Matt Walsh? He has to come clean and now your
questioning his character?
- all of a sudden he is the bad guy. Give me an Freakin break.
But since your going to pick and choose comments-
"his superiors coached him on how to evade NFL rules limiting the number of
camera operators per team to two, and that team officials instructed him on
ways to avoid detection"
Belichick's comments "I couldn't pick Matt Walsh out of a lineup?"- 'Well, I
wonder if he can pick me out on one of the three team pictures we're in
together.'
"When I was doing it, I understood what we were doing to be wrong," Walsh said.
"We went to great lengths to keep from being caught.
--------
Belichek's claim of "misinterpreting" the rules is bullcrap. He's an outright
scumbag, they cheated. They knew the play 75% of the time apparently.
I always wondered how Tom Brady and a bunch of mediocre talents always seemed
a step ahead, and had these great gameplans.
I EVEN MADE A POST HERE ONCE SAYING HOW THE MOST VALUABLE PATRIOTS WERE THE
COORDINATORS! (duh, looking back now- they were cheating...LOL)
Then the NFL destroys the evidence!! my god? what is this? and hands out a few
"tamer" tapes apparently.
It's not an NFL issue, it's no different then Microsoft stealing from Apple,
Coke stealing from Pepsi etc.....
Date: Thu May 15 14:49:46 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
If I had my way, it would be treated like any other white collar crime and
Belichek would be going to trial.
Date: Thu May 15 16:41:39 2008
Sender: Kevin Caery
"Anyways, I agree to disagree. Cool?"
Of course. I just think the impact of "stealing signals" is being way
overblown, especially since most teams change their signals constantly--and
picking up those signals in a more primitive manner than video is still
possible, which is why I believe the Patriots were using their reconaissance
for more sophisticated purposes than that. Matt Walsh was a low-level
assistant doing what he was told, and frankly I don't believe he is in a
position to speak for Belichick's deeper motives.
And the reality is probably that nobody outside a select group of coaches and
NFL will ever know any more than we do know, since they've obviously agreed to
put it behind them and whatever damage has already been done. Good night,
Senator.
Date: Thu May 15 16:43:06 2008
Sender: Kevin Caery
"If I had my way, it would be treated like any other white collar crime and
Belichek would be going to trial."
Just curious, what charge are you filing?
Date: Thu May 15 17:31:04 2008
Sender: Jamie Davies
All I know is I don't want any tax dollars spent on this, and I don't want
publicly-elected officials whose salaries are paid by tax dollars pursuing
this.
The US population does not have an interest here.
This is between the NFL, it's internal stakeholders, and it's consumers--not
the general public.
Frickin' politicians pandering for airtime makes me sick.
It's sad that you can get famous in DC just as fast as you can get famous in
Hollywood.
Date: Thu May 15 19:36:06 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
It would be the equivalent of one corporation stealing from another.
Arlen Specter in his 500th year, doesn't need to pander for air time.
I don't want a lot spent on it either-
I want all evidence turned over to the public, Matt Walsh, Bill Belichek, the
Commissioner, and that Red whoever guy suppeoned- and have to go through the
McGwire thing.
It should take about 1 day, and cost maybe 10K.- If I ran it.
Date: Thu May 15 19:36:11 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
It would be the equivalent of one corporation stealing from another.
Arlen Specter in his 500th year, doesn't need to pander for air time.
I don't want a lot spent on it either-
I want all evidence turned over to the public, Matt Walsh, Bill Belichek, the
Commissioner, and that Red whoever guy suppeoned- and have to go through the
McGwire thing.
It should take about 1 day, and cost maybe 10K.- If I ran it.
Date: Fri May 16 05:24:19 2008
Sender: Kevin Caery
"It would be the equivalent of one corporation stealing from another."
I think it would be more like those commercials where Coke Zero is trying to
sue regular Coke for taste infringement.
Date: Fri May 16 06:51:51 2008
Sender: William Johnson
" If I had my way, it would be treated like any other white collar crime and
Belichek would be going to trial. "
Uhh, you mean 'blue collar crime'. White collar criminals don't get
prosecuted.
Date: Fri May 16 11:16:28 2008
Sender: Red Burley
Aren't you Pats haters done yet? You have to keep pursuing this, even though
the Patriots have been caught, have confessed, and have been punished. Facts be
damned, you have to keep this alive! Congrats on your obsessive-compulsive
behavior.
And you must be bursting with pride that your torch-bearer is that
grandstanding buffoon from Pennsylvania.
I wouldnt be suprised if McCain doesnt pick Specter for his running mate. Who
would want to assassinate him, when the VP is an even bigger senile old fool?
Date: Fri May 16 12:36:22 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
Belichek confessed to a "misinterpretation" (ie. lie)
the NFL is trying a cover up because Goodall is in bed with
Belichek. They destroyed some of the tapes watergate-style. (enter Spectre) and
are now going after Matt Walsh's character in a desperate attempt to shoot the
messenger.
As for "Patriots Hater's" - LOL, you lost the superbowl. Showing it's a lot
tougher when you don't have the other teams playbook to go by.
I'll be quiet when the whole truth eventually comes out and
we see the Patriots were a far cry from "the greatest team ever".
Date: Fri May 16 14:20:38 2008
Sender: Red Burley
"the NFL is trying a cover up because Goodall is in bed with
Belichek."
Why in God's name would the NFL be giving BB special treatment? He has made a
mockery of the system of "parity" that league rules have been set up to
enforce. Not only that, BB wins with all the smugness and arrogance he can
muster. Hes a perfect villain, Goodell would be making himself look good by
taking down The Dark Lord.
Not only that, it cant be good for publicity purposes to have the premier team
in the league be an organization with all the PR savvy of the KGB. If anything,
the NFL would WANT the Patriots to fade away, to be supplanted by a "sexier"
team like Dallas.
"They destroyed some of the tapes watergate-style."
Explain what Watergate-style is?
"and are now going after Matt Walsh's character in a desperate attempt to shoot
the messenger."
From what I understand, Matt Walsh doesnt have much character. He was fired for
secretly taping private conversations, and went around claiming he was an Area
Scout when he was just a video assistant. He's just looking for a book deal, or
maybe some attention.
"I'll be quiet when the whole truth eventually comes out and
we see the Patriots were a far cry from "the greatest team ever"."
In other words, you BELIEVE the Patriots are guilty of something, and any
evidence to the contrary is a coverup. Facts that dont fit your paranoid
delusion dont exist, or the construct of some evil conspiracy.
Hell, maybe the Freemasons are secretly controlling the NFL!
AJ, stop insulting your own intelligence.
Date: Fri May 16 16:26:23 2008
Sender: Morris Cohen
If you want proof that they benefitted from taping, look no further than the
actual scores.
Their first 8 games, their closest game was a 17-point win. They won by an
average of 25 points.
But, as the information they had grew more and more outdated, and teams
probably figured out that they should change their signals and had time to do
so, the Patriots stopped performing at the same level.
The rest of the season really wasn't on the same level. Their last 8 games had
4 wins by 4 points or less (Indianapolis, Baltimore, Philadelphia, and the
Giants). Even the Jets came within 10 points, and then the Pats beat a 1-15
doormat by a score of only 28-7. Both AFC playoff games were very competitive
and then they lost the Super Bowl.
I'm not saying they weren't a great team -- I'm sure they still would have made
the playoffs without the taping, but there's certainly a hint that the taping
helped. Most likely, the only one who really truly knows how much it helped
(or didn't) is Belichick himself.
Date: Fri May 16 16:44:33 2008
Sender: Red Burley
Or maybe the opponents had more time to figure out a way to cope with the New
England offense?
Remember, nobody had ever seen this offense before, and the teams they played
in the first half of the season couldnt look at (legal) tapes to see examples
of what might stop it.
Date: Fri May 16 16:50:06 2008
Sender: Red Burley
Oh and by the way AJ- THERE WAS NO CRIME COMMITTED HERE!!!
The Patriots violated league rules. Would you like Arlen Specter climbing up
your ass because you didnt park in your assigned apce at work?
Oh my god, Perko made a personal call on a company phone! Quick, break out the
subpoenas!
Date: Fri May 16 17:55:59 2008
Sender: Morris Cohen
"Or maybe the opponents had more time to figure out a way to cope with the New
England offense?"
Yes, that is also possible, though the Patriots also had that time to learn how
to run things even better. I'm just saying there's some evidence that they
were not the same dominant team in the second half, which obviously can be
viewed a number of ways (for instance, one of the halves, take your pick, was
more luck).
Date: Fri May 16 19:13:30 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
well considering "winning" leads to the value of a franchise- now money is
involved. I'm sure if someone could prove New England cheated that caused
monetary damage to another franchise-
now you have a court case.
Patriot lovers can minimize it all they want. IMO, it's far worse then
steroids- If it was another franchise other than poor Boston and "Tom Brady is
God" I wonder if the punishment would be so trivial.
Date: Fri May 16 19:13:35 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
well considering "winning" leads to the value of a franchise- now money is
involved. I'm sure if someone could prove New England cheated that caused
monetary damage to another franchise-
now you have a court case.
Patriot lovers can minimize it all they want. IMO, it's far worse then
steroids- If it was another franchise other than poor Boston and "Tom Brady is
God" I wonder if the punishment would be so trivial.
Date: Sat May 17 09:13:24 2008
Sender: Jamie Davies
I'm not a Patriot lover, but I would think that an elected official to the US
Congress has more important things to deal with than this.
Problem for Spektor, he won't get his name on an ESPN headline dealing with the
types of things he's supposed to.
This is indicative of a bigger problem. The problem that government is involved
in way too many things that they shouldn't be involved in--and it's a huge
waste of taxpayer dollars.
The US Government blows--on almost every level.
Date: Sat May 17 10:20:30 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
can you tell me what Arlen Spector can possibly gain from headlines?
Date: Sat May 17 11:00:31 2008
Sender: Brian Dust
If another NFL owner felt aggrieved and considered the commissioner's response
inadequate, that owner should sue. It's not an issue for government.
Franchise value is largely a non-starter, since increased value of one team in
a league tends to increase the value of other teams in the league. Certainly
not by an equal dollar amount, but highly doubtful that would be the grounds of
another owner's dissatisfaction.
Date: Sat May 17 11:28:02 2008
Sender: Jamie Davies
"can you tell me what Arlen Spector can possibly gain from headlines?"
For starters, fame and everything that comes with it. We wouldn't be talking
about him if he were heading up an investigation into the aging infrastructure
of the country, would we?
I'd be willing to guess that if he hasn't been interviewe on ESPN, he will be
before too long.
Then there are probably layers upon layers of self-serving benefits that come
to a Senator who has their name in the headlines of mainstream media that we're
not even aware of.
I can tell you one thing--Spektor is doing this more for himself and his own
fame than he is for the best interest of the American public. And he's an
elected official, which means he should be serving the public, not stroking his
ego.
Date: Sat May 17 19:25:55 2008
Sender: John Fitzpatrick
I'm going to set aside how overplayed I think this entire issue is....but....do
you want to hear a twisted view?
Most of the things stated here in this post is pretty accurate. I really do
not see where it is congress' responsibility to step in here. What the
Patriots did was not law breaking. They broke rules that are enforced by their
league, the NFL. Said league took sanction on the Patriots, and now have
pretty much closed the book. Anything Specter wants IMO is overboard, and
frankly out of his jurisdiction. The twisted part? OK, lets say for a minute
that Belichick flat out cheated. He video taped every team they played for the
past 10 years, he knew it was wrong when he was doing it, those tapes helped
them planning for future games against their opponents. If that were the case,
who exactly gets hurt? Opponents, the players, coaches, the fans, sure. You
know who got hur the most? The bookies...Im not talking vegas here either.
What if Specter is into some bad people for alot of cake, or is some other way
connected...and has to do what he is doing as a puppet? This is the only way I
can even fathom a previously well respected member of congress actually
believing our tax dollars should go into investigating something that frankly
doesn't mean anything to the majority of the american public. As much as I
love football, we are paying $120 a barrell for oil, fighting a stagnant war,
wasting money trying to aid countries that dont want our help...and this guy
actually thinks this is going to be a good use of our tax dollars?
Unbelievable.
Date: Sun May 18 05:25:21 2008
Sender: Mike Boofer
John,
love the post. Only one slight quibble.
"This is the only way I can even fathom a previously well respected member of
congress"
I'd not call the guy that well respected. He was considered a joke by a lot of
people. I think he is just deciding to do 2 things- He doesn't have a lot of
time left in congress and will use his authority anyway he dang well pleases.
Secondly- suck up to pennsylvania. Eagles and esp. Steeler fans are among the
most upset about spygate and so he sees easy brownie points (he is a partisan
NFL fan being staunch Eagle and Steeler fan too).
I find the Steeler angle funny. "*Pats cheated -take their rings." Mention
the fact that half the NFL from the 70's says the Steel Curtain started the NFL
on steroids and all the evidence doesn't matter. Hypocritical. "Noll said
they didn't use steriods, so they didn't."
As for Spygate itself- yes they cheated. Yes they gained an unfair advantage.
they still had to execute- and did. They paid their price, and I think it was
right------ FOR THE PATS. Bill should have paid a higher price, IMO.
Suspension for 4-6 games would have been fair IMO.
Date: Sun May 18 06:18:04 2008
Sender: Brian Dust
John, I'm unconvinced the bookies get hurt. They don't know the circumstances,
but they are aware the Pats are dominant while BB is taping everything. It
makes it easier to set the odds for games. If the Pats don't have those tapes,
there may be more parity in Pats contests, resulting in more people winning
money betting on those games.
Date: Sun May 18 06:46:51 2008
Sender: John Fitzpatrick
Well Brian, the last 3 or 4 seasons, the bookies didn't get hurt by the
Patriots. From 2001 until I'd say 2003, when they won their first 2
superbowls, the bookies got hurt in their games. Remember, Those Patriots
teams were vastly undertalented, that is when people were scratching their
heads wondering how they were doing it.
Date: Sun May 18 07:06:16 2008
Sender: Brian Dust
John, that makes sense. I can't recall their personnel from those years, or
pundits' assessments of talent. DEL has a few teams that seem to outperform
given their talent. I wonder if those GMs are engaged in illegal activities?
Date: Sun May 18 08:44:51 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
yeah,
Arlen Spector has so much to prove. That is ridiculious. If he was a Senator
in his first term.
Mike I'm from PA too, you don't win 5 terms if people think your a "joke". The
guy will be 80 years old next election.
So wipe out the "trying to make a name for himself" arguement- that is just
stupid.
The NFL can be corrupt just like any other industry. There is an anti-trust
agreement, they get tax breaks- all kinds of things.
When their are allegations of corruption, then the NFL office says "oh we took
care of it"- and then quickly destroys all evidence.
- I don't see how anyone CANNOT have a problem with that.
Date: Sun May 18 09:44:25 2008
Sender: Mike Boofer
Right AJ. He wants to run for another term, RIGHT? I do have proof of that
if you want to argue it.
He (Specter) won the primary by LESS THAN 2%. Then defeated relative unknown,
and Unheralded Hoeffel- by less than 10% if I'm not mistaken. When you barely
hold your seat you tend to grandstand- and Suck UP. Specter isn't above it
either. No doubt this take has worked like crazy, he will roll over
competition this time. He's secured the edges of PA, now he will likely do
something to support Penn State and secure the T as well. Not that the T is
important if you carry Philly and Pitt- unless it is raining. However, the
fact that he has an R beside his name will likely mean he wins that part too.
Not to mention, Specter is the designer of the "Magic Bullet Theory".
Date: Sun May 18 11:02:47 2008
Sender: Bill Edwards
I am not a big Specter fan, but I understand he is battling terminal cancer so
I am going to give him a pass on this deal. I don't like government
interference at this level either. I did read part of his book recently and
found it very inspirational.
Date: Mon May 19 15:34:33 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
Greg Easterbrook hit the nail on the head
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=easterbrook/080517&sportCat=nfl
I watched Belicheks interview on CBS. The only thing he is sorry about is
getting caught and he knew what he was doing all along.
Date: Tue May 20 06:11:25 2008
Sender: Red Burley
"I watched Belicheks interview on CBS. The only thing he is sorry about is
getting caught and he knew what he was doing all along."
That's one thing I agree with you on, AJ. For whatever reasons, BB has been
thumbing his nose at the NFL for years. What do you think that ripped hoodie
was about? I'm not even sure he cared that he got caught-except that the Pats
lost a draft pick. The Dark Lord was saying "See? Im breaking your silly rules!
Try and stop me!".
I doubt he was the only NFL coach who was breaking rules; he was just more
arrogant about it.
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