Date: Mon May 5 12:29:58 2008
Sender: Morris Cohen
Well, Karim, you wanted to start an argument about the Arab-Israeli conflict?
Well.....here you go!
http://www.nationalpost.com/opinion/columnists/story.html?id=f6848b98-417b-4db9-ba63-0ebb7f4228a7&k=30619&p=1
"On
the eve of Israel's 60th anniversary, those of us who cherish our own
fundamental freedoms had better hope the Jewish state makes it through its
second 60 years; or else our own right to think, say or worship as we please
(unless, of course, we come under the scrutiny of a so-called human rights
commission) is in jeopardy."
Date: Mon May 5 13:31:08 2008
Sender: Karim Cheaib
“Israel cannot survive, perhaps Western civilization -- pluralistic,
democratic, individualistic, secular, free-trading and devoted to the rule of
law -- will be unable to last, either”
Hun……..
What the hek, its so easy to turn the arab world as barbaric and the poor
isrealy never do anything wrong. It make it sound like isreal never do anything
wrong, never commits crimes against humanity, and they are this peacefull state
that loves everyone around it. PLEASE
“They were especially enraged by our equal treatment of women and our tolerance
of gays and lesbians”
Oh yeah, I forgot, we are those uneducated fools that still lives on camels
(Chris shut up, I see you coming on this one lol). Please, if you read the
Coran, there is a whole Sourat (long chapter of many pages) call sourat el
nisa’a (the paragraph of women) which the men doesn’t have and the coran gives
as much right to the men as it does to the women. Now, yeah, I forgot that when
I lived 7 years in Canada, I NEVER heard of rape, wife beatings and so on,
westerns are so perfect, I forgot that
Now regarding the guys, Islam is against gays, so is Christianity and Judaism.
Do I need to elaborate here?
“And Hassan Nasrallah, the head of Hezbollah, has frequently urged Palestinians
to fight not only Israel but the whole of the Western world, which he has
described as satanic”
I liked the way it sounds the first time, so ill say it again… HUN…..
Take someone’s word and molded the way you want, that’s very easy. The axis of
evil as our beloved Bush like to say, evil means Satan which also means
satanic. Since this axes of evil is only made of Muslims, therefore I am
satanic… right!!!!!
He warns of governments that blindly support Israel, therefore those people are
threat to our existence. Oh wait, only the us is allowed to to say that they
very existence is threaten by this axis of evil.
“They were not motivated by poverty or political oppression as much as by faith
and ideology, and nearly all spoke of establishing a worldwide caliphate once
they had dispatched the Jewish state.”
Puff…. I wonder where this hatred comes from, and please don’t tell me faith
has something to do with this, PLEASE…..
Date: Mon May 5 13:52:54 2008
Sender: Morris Cohen
Karim,
I think it's safe to say that just because you aren't intolerant, hateful of
women and gays, etc ett, doesn't mean you speak for all Muslims. I wish you
did, but you don't.
"Now regarding the guys, Islam is against gays, so is Christianity and
Judaism."
They all view homosexuality as a sin, at least in traditional teaching, yes,
but which of the three exists in the countries where you can sent to jail or
executed for being gay? Hint: that doesn't happen in Israel.
"its so easy to turn the arab world as barbaric"
Sadly.....it is. You're right -- there is way too much material available, I
wish there weren't. I wish that I would have to watch Palestinian TV for more
than an hour before running into a hate-filled broadcast.
No, I don't actually think 'the arab world is barbaric', nor do I think Islam
is barbaric. But one doesn't have to look far to find some pretty bad
evidence. Sure, there's lots of bad evidence that people in the west can be
horrible, too, but just because a lot of horrible stuff exists in the west
doesn't mean that there isn't much MORE of it in certain other regions.
With regards specifically to Israel, she is a country with problems, big ones,
that need to be dealt with, first and foremost being peace with her neighbors.
Israel's creation will always be incomplete until and unless this glaring
problem is solved. I can't be firmer on that.
But, this week, I am proud to say that Israel has stood for 60 years against an
onslaught by an overwhelmingly more numerous enemy, the likes of which few
countries in history have ever had to withstand. Somehow, through it all,
Israel turned into a democratic, open society along the way. It's a very
imperfect one, most certainly, but it's one that I, as a Jew, look at with
pride.
Date: Tue May 6 05:58:36 2008
Sender: William Johnson
" Now regarding the guys, Islam is against gays, so is Christianity and
Judaism. Do I need to elaborate here? "
Yes, you do need to elaborate. What is the punishment for being gay in
Christianity? Judaism? Islam?
" the coran gives as much right to the men as it does to the women. "
Why are women treated as second-class citizens by those same countries that
punish gays with death? Can they drive? Alone? What is the purpose of the
head-to-foot clothing?
I will stop at saying all Islam is barbaric, but there does seem to be a
large portion of it's teaching that demands some pretty brutal treatment for
seemingly minor crimes.
But, certainly, you are right Karim. All western countries have their
barbaric moments, but I think that is 'the exception, not the norm'.
Date: Tue May 6 08:25:31 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
"What is the punishment for being gay in Christianity? Judaism? Islam?"
Eternal Damnation, which would suck.
Date: Tue May 6 08:38:58 2008
Sender: Karim Cheaib
Yes, you do need to elaborate. What is the punishment for being gay in
Christianity? Judaism? Islam?
in islam its not punishable by death. but you can be sure to go to hell
" the coran gives as much right to the men as it does to the women. "
Why are women treated as second-class citizens by those same countries that
punish gays with death? Can they drive? Alone? What is the purpose of the
head-to-foot clothing?
ok, again, we will go in the same old debate of religion vs traditions. women
are not treated as second class citizens. ok maybe in saudi arabia and Iran,
but trust me, i live in saudi arabia, when you see the level of education of
thos poor fools, and i mean 98% of them, you will understand why they act this
way, it has nothing to do with islam.
expect in ksa, yes woman are allowed to drive alone, and what ever pleases
them.
I will stop at saying all Islam is barbaric, but there does seem to be a large
portion of it's teaching that demands some pretty brutal treatment for
seemingly minor crimes.
I agree with you, you have extremist teaching in all religion, islam included
in such countries like saudi arabia. but not all arab countries have those
teachings. as a matter effect, very very few of them offer those teachings.
But, certainly, you are right Karim. All western countries have their barbaric
moments, but I think that is 'the exception, not the norm'.
well see, here you are saying that it is the norm to be barbaric in arab
countried. what do you know about arabs, have you ever visited one of those
countries? what do you know other than what the media tells you, and what they
tell, how representative is it of what really goes on in those country.
you are entitled to your opinion, i respect that, but please, do not let the
media tell you what to think. come, visit lebanon, egypt, marroco, tunisia,
everything expect saudi arabia and iran, and you will see, many of your
opinions will change.
Date: Tue May 6 09:15:52 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
Islam for the most part is simply behind Western Culture. Cultural Difference
create conflict.
For much of history they were ahead, (they must have had some sort of dark
ages)
think about it-
Women treated second class (Done that most of Western History)
Women put to death for adultery (Done that too)
Gays put to death (only 300-400 years ago)
open hatred as of recent-
fanatical religious (see: Inquisition, Puritans etc.)
There isn't much going on in Islam that hasn't happened in Christianity. The
masses are easily controlled by people with agenda's.
Thats why the answer to the Radical Islam issue is equality, better living
conditions, education, world integration of your average Islamic person and it
will even itself out.
Force does nothing.
The learn from history cliche', holds true- it's a shame Western Culture can't
see it.
Date: Wed May 7 03:06:11 2008
Sender: Chris Blackman
Having been in rooms where meetings have taken place between representatives of
the Canadian Government and Israel, and the Palestinians (not at the same
time), I can tell you the overwhelming impression one is left with after
leaving is mostly despair.
Its sometimes quite subtle, but one can certainly recognize that each group
feels a powerful sense of hatred for the other. And these are not 12 year olds
throwing rocks, or radical members of some fringe group - but respected
community leaders, or government officials.
Recognizing, this I am not sure there is much of a helpful role that people
from places like Canada, US, UK can ever hope to play in achieving peace in the
region.
We just dont "get it" and frankly, I dont think we can reasonably be expected
to, either.
I cant imagine on the one hand, being surrounded by several hundred million
people whose leaders have often said that my country has no right to exist, and
my people should be wiped off the face of the earth. On the other, I cant even
begin to appreciate the lack of hope that must come growing up in Gaza and to
see a foreign people exert absolute control over me, and to lack the generally
accepted human rights that the occupying power purports to be trying to protect
for its own, at the expense of my family and friends.
This isnt about Jesus Christ, oil, or President Carter. Its simply a case
where as humans we havent yet developed to the point where we can show common
decency to one another.
Date: Wed May 7 06:18:49 2008
Sender: William Johnson
" in islam its not punishable by death. but you can be sure to go to hell "
Why would Imadinnerjacket say there are no gays in Iran? Was he being the
jokester? It is my understanding that being gay is punishable by death, if I am
wrong then...sorry for bringing it up. Otherwise, comparing everyone else (all
other religions) simply saying to the gay person; "bad gay person, now you
won't go to heaven" is hardly comparable to being physically slaughtered for
being gay.
Now, to be fair with you Karim. I am talking about governmentally
controlled/decided fates. Again, while there are a few wacked out fanatics in
every religion that 'hates' one group of people or the other to the point of
killing each other. My problem is when a government interprets it's religion as
authorizing killing people for lifestyle choices, I think that kind of crosses
the line. And, makes me wonder what exactly is in their book that they think
gives them that right.
In other words, are they (government) interpretting it correctly, and
everyone else is wrong OR are they wrong and everyone else is interpretting it
correctly? If they are wrong, why are the people (hundreds of millions) blindly
following what they can see in their own version of the same book to be wrong?
Date: Wed May 7 08:36:30 2008
Sender: Karim Cheaib
William, being gay is not punishable by death. and regarding ahmadinedjad, ok,
i admit, the guy has a few loose screws up there.
now, regarding you comment about who is right and wrong in their
interpretation. its very simple, you have 2 very conservative countries when it
come to interpreting the coran. Saudi arabi and Iran. Ok, in KSA, women are not
allowed to drive and they have to wear the abaya, the black thing they put on
topof their cloth. I will challenge anyone to find this in the coran. why are
people following this? well there is 2 reasons! 1) Tthey don't really have a
choice 2) the older generation agrees with it goes they were raised this way,
and dont forget, 80 years ago or so, they were still leaving in tribes and on
camels. the youger generation doesnt agree with this because they are much more
educated and go to school and stuff.
its about how educated are you, the more you are, the less naive you wll be to
beleive anything your leader tells you, you don't question it, you do not think
about it.
Date: Wed May 7 08:58:22 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
Blackman- you hit that nail on the head.
The Palestinians probably feel they don't even have a chance, because at the
first sign of conflict (right or wrong) here comes the big bad US to fight
Israel's war.
Date: Wed May 7 13:31:01 2008
Sender: Henry Morgan
Israel doesn't need us to fight off those folks.
They were using preemptive strikes before we even knew what they meant. Taking
out nuclear facilities in Iraq, Iran, Syria...etc.
Date: Wed May 7 14:41:02 2008
Sender: Joshua MacOscar
One of the big problems is that the allegiances are so tight. I expect Middle
East allies to defend each other with little question, just like we do with
Israel.
Date: Wed May 7 15:14:07 2008
Sender: Karim Cheaib
Henry, do you beleive that without the economical and military aid from the US,
they would be able to stand against Iran for example???? come on....
Date: Thu May 8 06:57:12 2008
Sender: William Johnson
" William, being gay is not punishable by death. and regarding ahmadinedjad,
ok, i admit, the guy has a few loose screws up there. "
An organization seems to disagree with you. This link (dated 2006) says
differently; http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_isla.htm They say there
are several countries that punish them with death for being 'different'.
Perhaps things have changed in the last 1 1/2 years.
Date: Thu May 8 07:54:20 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
"Israel doesn't need us to fight off those folks."
Tell that to Hillary.
Date: Thu May 8 08:30:55 2008
Sender: Morris Cohen
The last time Israel didn't have US aid was 1973. That was the year Egypt and
Syria launched a surprise, coordinated attack on the holiest day in the Jewish
calendar, and Israeli defenses came a whisker away from completely breaking in
the early going.
Since then, when US aid to Israel began, there has not been a single war of
that intensity involving Israel. Conflict obviously hasn't gone away, but all
military confrontations since then have been tit-for-tat in comparison.
US aid to Israel has in fact been a significant agent of peace in the region,
without which, for instance, peace treaties with Egypt, Jordan, and at least
the Oslo efforts with the Palestinians, never would have been feasible.
Date: Thu May 8 11:46:39 2008
Sender: Henry Morgan
Economic and military aid is not the same as "coming to fight their war." Not
in any way.
We support a lot of countries economically and have provided military aid to
scores of nations.
Israel runs its country its way, and it's not a way that I think America agrees
with all the time. But they do it just the same. If we were going to just come
in and run their war, why wouldn't we have done it by now?
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