Date: Wed Apr 30 06:18:23 2008
Sender: Just Oz
If you want to vote for Barak because you like his liberal positions, that's
fine. I don't agree, but it's your right.
But please don't tell me he's different. He's lied repeatedly and did so again
yesterday when talking about Pastor Wright and how he wasn't really that close.
Check out this youtube video that puts Barak's own words together:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0n16tLzsAI
Keep in mind that Barak sat in the pew of his church and gave over $25000 to
the church. So you can't tell me that he didn't know about all of this stuff.
That's example 1.
Example 2 -- Tony Rezco
Example 3 -- A sixties terrorist whose name escapes me who was another friend
of Barak's.
One thing that Barak has said is that it is about Judgement and frankly, Barak
doesn't have it.
What he's shown is that he's not ready for prime time. That Hillary's argument
about being ready on Day One is a valid one.
Obama is a VERY charismatic, naive, politician. He's two years removed from
being a state senator which means pretty much nothing.
He's not bi-partisan. When asked for an example of being bi-partisan in the
Senate, he said that after he voted against John Roberts for SCOTUS that he
made excuses for Democrats who did vote for him. That's his big claim to
bi-partisanship.
Date: Wed Apr 30 07:35:04 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
I will vote for him because of this Reverend Wright.
Republicans can have Pat Robertson in their mist blaming hurricane Katrina as
part of God's wrath against gays, and thats OK...
but once again the Republicans have managed to take an issue that shouldn't
mean a damn thing and turned it into a critical election issue.
It's damn shameful, and disgusting America is so stupid to vote based on this
stupidity.
Date: Wed Apr 30 08:51:03 2008
Sender: Mark Z
There are extremes on both sides. The issue is not whether they exist, the
issue is that this extremist was part of Obama's inner circle for 20 years,
until it became politically inconvenient for him to be so.
If Robertson were highly involved in McCain's political and personal life, it
would be a huge issue. But he's not, and it's not.
The underlying story here is Obama does not share these extreme views of
Wright's. Obama likely joined this church in large part because it gave him
bona fides in the Chicago political scene when he was coming in as an outsider
(born in Hawaii, Harvard education, etc). It was a very smart move for his
career in Illinois.
Obama knew this was an issue once he officially turned his eyes on the
presidency, which is why he left Wright out of his formal candidacy launch and
did not give him a formal role in the campaign. There is a more than
insignificant chance that Wright is doing this all to specifically get back at
Obama for cutting him out.
There are also leaks coming from other members of the church over the last day
or two that support his as well.
All of this does not mean Obama is a lunatic like Wright, but these events do
support what Oz is saying. He's a charismatic politician with a pure liberal
record. If that's your cup of tea, great. If not, vote for someone else.
Date: Wed Apr 30 09:51:15 2008
Sender: Joshua MacOscar
The issue to me is that Obama has been running as the anti-politician, but is
consistently showing that he is another slimy politician.
It seems that "Change" is something the skeptics thought it was all along, just
a buzz word with no meaning behind it.
I mean change as Obama says it, not change in the average use of the word,
because that means change, or change.
Date: Wed Apr 30 10:06:21 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
inner circle, LOL...
Date: Wed Apr 30 10:19:18 2008
Sender: Just Oz
The point AJ is that he's not an "agent of change" or anything like that.
As I said, feel free to vote for him (your American right), but let's all at
least drop the pretense that he is something special.
He's a neophyte politician with terrible judgement.
Date: Wed Apr 30 10:57:07 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
a far bigger problem then having a wacko preacher, is being bought off by
lobbyist.
Obama is far more clean then McCain or Clinton.
------------------------------------------
It won't make a difference in my life who Reverand Wright is- It will make a
difference which corporation is in the back pocket of our candidates.
You think that would be a no-brainer for people.
Date: Wed Apr 30 10:57:08 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
a far bigger problem then having a wacko preacher, is being bought off by
lobbyist.
Obama is far more clean then McCain or Clinton.
------------------------------------------
It won't make a difference in my life who Reverand Wright is- It will make a
difference which corporation is in the back pocket of our candidates.
You think that would be a no-brainer for people.
Date: Wed Apr 30 11:10:25 2008
Sender: Brian Dust
I suspect the degree of influence lobbyist exert on Obama is less of a
character issue, and more one of experience. The more time he spends in
Washington, the more beholden he'll become to certain corporations or
industries.
Date: Wed Apr 30 11:18:45 2008
Sender: Jeff Luddingsmash
Obama plays basketball. That's all you need to know. Vote Obama!
Date: Wed Apr 30 11:20:53 2008
Sender: Brian Dust
McCain was friends with James Naismith...vote McCain!
Date: Wed Apr 30 12:52:07 2008
Sender: Kendell R Jillson
But Hillary won an NCAA championship...
http://www.sportspickle.com/features/volume7/2008-0326-clinton.html
Date: Wed Apr 30 19:08:38 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
I don't consider experience in politcs a good thing.
I'll take a stupid idealist over your average worn out, beaten down, thin
souled, lifetime politician.
Date: Wed Apr 30 21:55:42 2008
Sender: William Johnson
" Obama is far more clean then McCain or Clinton. "
At least in one unimportant issue. But, I guess, the issue only becomes
important when the conservative has a hand in it? I'll bet if 5 liberals had a
problem with lobbyists and 5 conservative had the same problem, the issue would
be moot if only the liberals were being discussed. Of course, if the
conservatives were being discussed then it would be of 'end world' importance.
BTW, those numbers were just made up to make a point.
Date: Thu May 1 05:52:45 2008
Sender: Jeff Luddingsmash
William I think you've been making the same point for the past three years. We
get it already.
"I don't consider experience in politcs a good thing"
A few weeks ago there was an article in Yahoo News that looked at past
presidents, their previous experience and how well they performed while in the
White House. The article basically showed that previous political experience
had very little to do with presidential performance.
Date: Thu May 1 06:10:37 2008
Sender: William Johnson
No, Jeff. Some still don't get it :(
Date: Thu May 1 06:19:53 2008
Sender: Jeff Luddingsmash
Well William it's been over three years. Maybe it's time you gave up trying to
convince them.
I'm not trying to be offensive to anyone, but political discussion has really
gone to pot on the DEL boards. I used to really enjoy hearing everyone's views.
I've even had my own personal opinion shifted by strong arguments made by
others.
However, polarization and an unwillingness to be open-minded has killed what I
once loved about political discussion at DEL. I would really appreciate it if
we could stop painting everything as wrong or right and explore the middle
ground a little.
Date: Thu May 1 07:14:31 2008
Sender: William Johnson
How much more 'shifting' can happen if the message isn't brought forward? Are
you suggesting we let our political opinions stagnate and not change?
Date: Thu May 1 07:18:35 2008
Sender: Henry Morgan
How many people's political views have really changed as a result of discussion
on this board? I doubt very many.
Date: Thu May 1 07:34:09 2008
Sender: Jeff Luddingsmash
Henry, I can really only speak for myself. I was an avid supporter of invading
Iraq. I was very much pro-choice. I thought George Bush was the anti-christ.
However, my opinion on each of these things has changed directly as a result of
discussion on DEL boards.
William, let be speak plainly using you and AJ as an example.
AJ: The Republicans are terrible. Vote Democrat.
William: The Democrats are terrible. Vote Republican.
Repeat for three years.
Date: Thu May 1 08:46:57 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
You know what is really annoying-
When your Pro-Death Penalty
When your Pro-Gun Ownership
When your for abortion restrictions
When you don't believe in affirmitive action
Are for tougher immigration laws
Believe in gay unions- not gay marriage
yet are considered a radical lefty-
Date: Thu May 1 09:29:14 2008
Sender: Joshua MacOscar
If I am always bashing cold weather you would get the impression that I
preferred hot weather, regardless of where I live or how many kick ass parkas I
own.
Date: Thu May 1 09:47:55 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
if you look at the past few months, almost all of my posts are responses to-
what I consider unethical "marketing" of one of a few things
the Iraq War
health care
education
big oil lies
or things like Obama's pastor.
In defence of Obama- I couldn't stand GW Bush, I thought he was incompetent,
arrogant and naive, and his neo-con cabinet is essentially evil.
Karl Rove turned the 2004 election into a disgusting gay-marraige, Terry
Schiavo, abortion, and harped on John Kerry's military record. I still can't
get over the fact that the Bush administration came out more patriotic than a
guy with TWO VOLUNTARY COMBAT TOURS IN VIETNAM...
Point being - NONE OF THIS WAS REALLY RELEVANT TO ANYTHING. None of this
had any effect on me.
- So when I see this election being turned into "Obama's Pastor", it pisses me
off. It shows nothing. What if Obama wins are white people going to be thrown
into bondage?
Date: Thu May 1 10:37:55 2008
Sender: Brian Dust
"...and harped on John Kerry's military record. I still can't
get over the fact that the Bush administration came out more patriotic than a
guy with TWO VOLUNTARY COMBAT TOURS IN VIETNAM..." -AJ
True dat!
Date: Thu May 1 13:11:47 2008
Sender: Joshua MacOscar
" Karl Rove turned the 2004 election into a disgusting gay-marraige, Terry
Schiavo, abortion, and harped on John Kerry's military record."
I believe that there were as many pro-gay marriage and pro-abortion that vote
on the left as there are anti-gay marriage and anti-abortion people that vote
on the right.
I agree that these issues should be trivial. But they are not, and I believe
that is is very partisan to pretend that it is only the other side that uses
these tactics.
It is a yin and yang thing. For every AJ there is a William. For every Henry
there is a Brian. For every Morris, well there is only one Morris.
Date: Thu May 1 14:06:03 2008
Sender: Jeff Luddingsmash
That God for that. The world couldn't handle two.
Date: Thu May 1 15:01:14 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
Josh -
it was a tactic they openly used to get the Republican base out to vote. It
wasn't a secret or anything.
The gay marriage, abortion issue brings the right out in droves- it's tried and
true.
"For every AJ there is a William"
and a Jeff who sits back and tries to stereotype every issue into right or
left.
(Despite the fact I just made a list of conservative issues I support and voted
for Reagan and GH Bush once)
You think William ever voted left? or leans left on any issue?
Date: Thu May 1 15:18:20 2008
Sender: Joshua MacOscar
"The gay marriage, abortion issue brings the right out in droves- it's tried
and true."
They bring out the left in droves too. Spend a week in the "hip" neighborhood
of a city or on a college campus and you will see at least one pro-choice or
pro-gay marriage rally or table or frisbee tournament benefit for abortions and
gay marriage.
You seem to have the stance that when the left does it, it is out of genuine
feelings, but when the right does it, it is simply a tactic used to win
elections. Which is why you come across as a far left version of the righties
you despise.
I am only speaking of perception. It is not an insult. I don't think being on
the far left or right is a negative. So you voted for Reagan and Good Bush,
that was 16 years ago.
I don't understand why most people are so intent on placing themselves in the
political center. I sense it is because they feel as though they are
pragmatists that look at every issue with logical reasoning, while everyone
that opposes them is simply driven by fundamentalism.
Date: Thu May 1 17:43:56 2008
Sender: Jeff Luddingsmash
"and a Jeff who sits back and tries to stereotype every issue into right or
left"
Actually I think you've got that backwards AJ. Personally I'm all for debating
issues. I could care less if it's left or right.
What tires me is the tendancy for every issue to turn into a
namecalling/discrediting of Dem/Rep leaders.
Anyhow, that's my take on the situation. It's also a major reason why I haven't
really bothered with political debates over the past few years. The pattern has
grown stale for me.
Date: Thu May 1 18:17:32 2008
Sender: William Johnson
" You think William ever voted left? or leans left on any issue? "
Let's see. My memory is getting bad..but (thank God for google)
1st; Gerald Ford (lost) (only because he was from Michigan)
2nd; Ronald Reagan (won)
3rd; Ronald Reagan (won)
4th; George Bush (won)
5th; Ross Perot (lost)
6th; Ross Perot (lost)
7th; George Bush (won)
8th; George Bush (won)
9th; John McCain (will win)
5-3 record. Not bad.
So, I guess I've never voted democrat. I don't know all the nuances of each
issue, so I doubt I could answer that one, although I lean left on legalization
of pot ;)
Date: Thu May 1 19:33:56 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
Joshua...
If turning an election into an abortion debate brings out the left, the
Democrats would do it. Instead, they do the opposite. Millions of dollars are
spent deciding which issues to showcase, gay marriage and abortion are issues
the right strategically brings to the forefront.
(Just like the left always goes to health care)
Date: Thu May 1 19:51:40 2008
Sender: William Johnson
" Instead, they do the opposite. "
You mean they tell their voters to stay home?
Date: Thu May 1 21:22:36 2008
Sender: Joshua MacOscar
I don't know AJ. I'm sure plenty of pro-choice and pro-gay marriage voters turn
out to vote because of that issue. My mom once told me she would vote for a
pro-choice candidate over a pro-life candidate even if the pro-lifer stood for
everything else she believed in.
Both sides get those voters. Maybe the Democrats don't need to do anything
special to get them to vote because they can count on them but the Republicans
need to remind voters of the horrors of two dudes playing naked grabass with
wedding rings on.
Date: Thu May 1 21:24:37 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
William- your smarter than you act.
You know full well there are issues that are brought into a campaign solely to
get people to the voting booth.
Gay Marriage in the RedStates was the big one last election. Most people knew
it was a non-issue, nothing was going to happen or not happen. Yet it scared
the crap out of small town god-fearing rural Conservatives..... so many who
felt detached on larger issues, came to vote on that.
I can't believe I'm explaining this to people who talk politics on this board.
It's a fact, even Rove discussed the use of Wedge Issues.
Date: Thu May 1 21:36:31 2008
Sender: Joshua MacOscar
Consider that the religious voters almost all oppose gay marriage. Those voters
are going to vote anti-commie anyway. When polled, they will say that gay
marriage is important to them. It does not mean that is the only reason they
turned out to vote.
Do Democrats think that every election that they have lost in the history of
time is a result of the evil republicans tricking stupid hill folk?
Date: Thu May 1 22:34:05 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
"result of the evil republicans tricking stupid hill folk"
I'm not Barrack Obama. I grew up in a town of 2000, we have 3 days of for deer
season. So playing that card doesn't work.
It's not tricking, but you bring guns, god, gays, into an election,
conservatives will be more likely to vote than if you stick to things like the
economy. This isn't a secret. Those are called Trigger Issues.
They are not the same Trigger Issues that liberals move on.
Date: Thu May 1 22:44:59 2008
Sender: William Johnson
" William- your smarter than you act. "
Ha ha. Morris has met me, and he will attest that is not true. :)
No, really, though. If conservatives have their 'trigger' issues and liberals
have theirs, why don't the liberals get out and vote for the issues they
believe so strongly in? If your going to blame the victory of elections on
outstanding voter turn-out as a result of conservative 'trigger' issues then,
it would seem, that you could blame the loss on lack of conviction on the part
of liberals who felt compelled to stay home and not vote. I would assume
because they did not feel as strongly towards the particular issue as
conservatives did.
Date: Thu May 1 22:59:41 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
You guys are right.
The hours of political strategy, the millions spent on campaign tactics, is all
bunk. There is no issues that certain people care about more than others. I
mean if banning rugby were a political issue I'm sure everyone would care about
it just as much as I do whether for it or against it. Indifference doesn't
exist.
Date: Thu May 1 23:45:07 2008
Sender: Joshua MacOscar
"So playing that card doesn't work."
I'm not playing it to beat you or something. I am playing that card against
those on the left that believe red staters are morons. In recent elections,
leading Democrats have used that tactic to explain their failures. There have
been several quotes along the lines of "If you didn't vote for us you were
duped or you just don't get it."
These excuse-makers ignore that there is just as large of a section of the
Democratic base that is fed the same crap regarding trigger or wedge issues.
That is my point AJ. You can't possibly believe that Democrats don't have
people turning out in droves because they elevate issues into the public eye.
Democrats vote over the same stupid crap as Republicans. Democrats have similar
groups of ignorant people voting for them. For every dumb hick, there is a dumb
urban know-it-all countering his vote.
Date: Fri May 2 18:09:25 2008
Sender: Henry Morgan
Both parties have wedge issues and both parties have issues they use to bring
out the base.
Date: Sun May 4 21:17:09 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
I figured out why the Republicans are pulling for Hillary-
on her gas tax holiday.
"I'm not listening to the economist on this one"
- Hillary Clinton
She reminds them of GW Bush. Both of them are incredibly arrogant and full of
hubris.
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