Date: Mon Mar 17 21:03:03 2008 Sender: Lord Bremen http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEMZHQsQJ6Y Oops. Date: Mon Mar 17 21:36:20 2008 Sender: Just Oz the hardest part for Obama is pretending that he didn't know these things were being said when he attended services there for nearly 20 years. If my pastor said a tenth of the anti-american stuff this guy does I'd be looking for a new church. Date: Tue Mar 18 05:38:02 2008 Sender: William Johnson I think the biggest question mark with this situation will be his judgement. He's been claiming all along that he will be the better president because he has better judgement than Hilary or McCain. While he may be able to seperate himself from the hateful speech of this pastor, I doubt he will be able to excuse away 'why' he stayed in that church for 20 years. It doesn't seem to be good judgement on the part of someone who needs that quality in order to be a good president. Look at Bush as a good comparison, he is considered to be lacking good judgement and is considered one of the worst presidents in all of history, by some. Any other candidate with this sort of 'apparant' association to a religious figure with this amount of controversy would be demanded to step down from the presidential race. Looks like it will be Hilary v. McCain. McCain's over in Iraq visiting troops and inspecting conditions, Hilary and Obama are bickering like little school children. I wonder who the American people will consider to be better suited to run the country? And, to think, the republicans did everything they could do to HAND the white house over to the democrats. All the democrats had to do was to hoist up a live body and they would have won the election. Thank you Nancy Pelosi for screwing your party's chance at having control of the House/Senate and Presidency. Nothings more productive than taking the low ratings of the republicans to an even lower level within just one year of taking over control. I hope the democrats are happy! Date: Tue Mar 18 07:09:21 2008 Sender: Karim Cheaib "McCain's over in Iraq visiting troops and inspecting conditions, Hilary and Obama are bickering like little school children. I wonder who the American people will consider to be better suited to run the country? And, to think, the republicans did everything they could do to HAND the white house over to the democrats." William, don't forget one thing though, is that McCain don't have primaries anymore, he is going to be the Republican candidate, so it's easier for him to go to Irak, not because he is a bigger man. If he was still fighting to be the candidate, do you really think he would have gnet Irak??? Date: Tue Mar 18 07:17:45 2008 Sender: Karim Cheaib You know, I just saw the video. the pastor is not being anti American. not because you voice your concern about your govt, that will make you anti American. he told that the govt lied about WMD, that's true, he said the govt laid about Iraq and Al Qaeda, that's true and so long so forth. I don;t see that being anti American. so, if the US is run by a democratic president, which lied about something, and republicans goes out there and say the get is lying to us, that's make them anti American...... Date: Tue Mar 18 07:37:06 2008 Sender: Morris Cohen Well, in fairness, I do think there's something quite inappropriate about saying "God bless America? No! God damn America!" if you're an American citizen in a role model position, and speaking to a congregation of Americans. Having said that, yes, it is important to separate what's really anti-American with what is just voicing criticisms in a very loud sermon-esque voice. A big chunk of the video was just that; it isn't automatically offensive simply because Bill O'Rly said "you're going to be offended" beforehand. Date: Tue Mar 18 10:13:05 2008 Sender: Mike Boofer The Government lied about HIV and using it to kill only people of color- I'm paraphrasing, but still similiar to HIS quote. Yep, he's as American as apple pie. Date: Tue Mar 18 15:35:43 2008 Sender: Joshua MacOscar I won't fault Obama for what Wright said. There should be questions regarding Obama's relationship with a racist, but every presidential candidate is probably friends with an idiot that would say stupid things if given the forum. I do believe that this situation is indicative of what I perceive as a huge negative regarding Obama, that he is all about image. Being part of this church is good for his image with the black voters that considered him to be too "white". By being civil regarding his disagreements with the pastor, he can keep the "America deserved 9/11" vote. By saying that he does not agree with all of Wright's statements without getting down and dirty, he placates a lot of voters who believe that "Change" is a platform position. Date: Tue Mar 18 17:04:09 2008 Sender: Christopher E Smith This was not written by me... Check it out (but only with an OPEN mind): Americans, Democrats but not only Democrats, supporters of Clinton or Obama or none of the above.... ....we are facing a crossroads. In one direction lies a battle we have been fighting for decades upon decades, of which many of us are weary, to which many of us cannot relate. In the other direction, there lies a new dynamic. And we have a choice to make. I cannot remember ever encountering a Rorschach test as instantly inflammatory and deeply telling as the ten second clips, aired in continuous loops on cable tv and, apparently in some peoples minds, of Reverend Jeremiah Wright this past week. Their prominent display seems to have set an entire generation of people back on its heels and into the recesses of its collective brain, where it is fighting the last war still. I feel like I'm watching a loved one suffer through some kind of PTSD flashback. Its depressing and scary. Part of me wants to settle you down and make you comfortable; part of me wants to slap you silly until you open your eyes and see what's actually there. Its a maddening time to be a young Democrat. All I can do right now is to tell it to you as I see it, and hope that you listen and try to understand. This furor is about two things at its core: race and generational experience. There are some who claim its really about religion and politics - by and large those claims seem disingenous to me. Yes, what Rev. Wright said was inflammatory, but the vast majority of it has been said on numerous occasions in other forms and in different formats. The idea that 9/11 was to some extent the result of decades of military involvement overseas, especially in muslim majority nations, has been expressed by 'serious' intellectuals before and frankly seems likely. Growing up I heard preachers say that America would answer for her sins more times than I could count - though usually the sins listed were abortion and homosexuality, not the killing of innocent civilians. Anyone who has actually been to a church or knows anything about, especially, the religious right knows that churches these days often express political views, and they aren't always mainstream ones (and its important to note that African American churches have a very long history of political involvement and mobilization - none of this should come as a surprise to anyone who is even remotely familiar with the tradition). In short, if John McCain's white preacher was heard on tape speaking disdainfully about Islam or saying that America must change its leftist ways or face the judgment of the Divine, the sentiment would seem so common no one would even see fit to play the tapes on television, let alone manufacture a controversy over McCain's connection to the man. But this isn't a white evangelical preacher pushing the views of the religious right. Its an 'angry black man.' And lets face it, in America, thats different. The first time I saw those tapes I was in the company of conservative baby boomers... their reaction was immediate disgust, physical even, setting in strongly before they could have possibly thought through what was being said. I suspect that they were not alone in having that kind of visceral reaction to Wright's anger, passion and choice of words. Most of the people that I have talked to who are 'outraged' over this issue don't even seem to remember what the words were or meant at all; they say Wright is a racist without being able to explain why or how, they remember 'God damn America' but haven't a clue about the context in which it was said. All they saw, all they remember, is that angry black face, dressed in foreign looking garb, bringing race to the forefront in a confrontational manner. The fact of the matter is that nothing you saw in those tapes is particularly uncommon in the black community. Whether we whites wish to see it or not, there is a lot of fear and paranoia and anger in that community to this day - and to some extent its understandable. That doesn't excuse all of it, and that certainly doesn't make it healthy or productive. But its there. It must be dealt with. And getting all red in the face and proclaiming 'outrage' and condemning anyone who associates with it isn't going to cut it. Now for the claims of 'guilt by association.' Barack Obama has been a servant of the public in an official capacity for more than 13 years. He has worked closely with our most prominent politicians. He has written and voted on oodles of legislation. He has given speech after speech. He has written two lengthy and particularly honest books about himself and his life. There has been no hint in any of this record or in any of these relationships that Obama himself agrees with any of his pastor's racially divisive rhetoric or shares any of his anger. In fact, Obama has made every effort publicly and privately to transcend these kinds of artificial and pointless divisions between people; his consistency on this has been truly remarkable. So what, exactly, are we afraid of? I get the feeling that a lot of people, baby boomers especially, are overplaying the relationship between Obama and Wright because in their minds and hearts, whether they want to admit it or not, Obama's blackness associated him with that kind of anger immediately. People of a certain age seem to have very particular frames built up through which to view people and ideas; these frames were set in the 60's when divisiveness was at a maximum. This 'identity politics' way of viewing things also explains Geraldine Ferarro's statements about racism and sexism and why she was so hellbent on defending them. Both Ferarro and Wright are children of an era in which identity was everything, in which each person was supposed to fit neatly into a little box and everyone had their supreme label: the hawk or the dove, the black or the white, the man or the woman. Many of these people WANT on some level for Obama to fit into the 'black' box. And everyone knows that the 'black' box is full of angry radicals like Wright. So to conflate the two is natural. But the problem is, Obama doesn't fit in that box. He refuses to fit in ANY box. He dares to reach out to people of all classifications - from angry black men to optimistic white youth to gay people to conservatives to anyone else who is willing - but he doesn't become them, he LISTENS to them, tries to understand them and learn from them what he can. This inability to fit into and refusal to use the 60's era system of compartmentalization is a huge reason why Obama appeals to so many in our largest and, potentially, our new 'greatest' generation, the millennials. We understand what Obama is trying to do because many of us juggle people in the same way in our daily lives. We are gloriously diverse and we love it: 40% of us are ethnic minorities, we were raised on hip hop and bilingualism, more than half of us have been in interracial relationships. We haven't stopped supporting Obama, and we won't. We don't get what all this fuss is about. We have old racist uncles and sexist bosses and judgmental pastors and we know that being connected to them does not make us carbon copies of them. We genuinely don't understand why so many people seem to think that one could not seek spiritual advice from someone they disagreed with about something political. If we all vetted our friends and associates that way - distancing ourselves from anyone too different - we would be profoundly lonely. Americans, we are at a crossroads. We are looking at a fine man and a fine candidate who is involved in a complicated relationship with someone who plays into an awful stereotype. We have two choices. We can view this man through the frames of the past, reduce him to a one-dimensional caricature of himself and place the two men together in a box labeled 'black,' whatever that entails, so that they both can be summarily dismissed. Or we can set the frames and boxes aside. We can judge this man on the content of his character, not on the color of his skin and the many generalizations that tend to flow from that. We can accept this relationship for what it is: a friendship in which there is some agreement and some disagreement, in which both parties are forever growing and changing, a friendship just like many that we all have. And then we can let Wright go back to representing Wright and take a good, hard look at our candidate, making this important decision based on what he and he alone brings to the American table. I'm ready to take a step forward. I hope you are, too. If you've gotten this far, thank you so much for taking the time to read this. Keep up the good work, keep the faith, I truly believe America is stronger than we think we are ... no matter how bogged down in racism and sexism and petty sniping we get, this too shall pass. - Karli Wallace Date: Tue Mar 18 17:08:23 2008 Sender: Randy Rhodes I am so glad our pastors stay away from politics! They're very careful to not mention any political views. I guess that'll bode well for me if I run for president!! Date: Tue Mar 18 17:33:29 2008 Sender: Henry Morgan Its an 'angry black man.' And lets face it, in America, thats different. *This is where I stopped. No, it is not different. Actually, it is. If a white man said this and if that white man were say, Mike Huckabee's mentor, all hell would have broken loose in the media about .2 seconds after he declared his candidacy for president. If this guy were white, he'd be labeled a white supremacist. But racism is racism. There is no reverse discrimination, there is only discrimination. That Obama spent more than 1 day in this man's mentorship, let alone 20 years, speaks volumes about his inner feelings about race in America. Combine this with the connections he's fostered in Kenyan politics to socialists who are tolerant of deadly violence in protest of an election and make deals with Muslim clerics to govern as they want, and I'm not sure how anyone can in good conscience support him. Date: Tue Mar 18 17:57:21 2008 Sender: Brian Pate "That Obama spent more than 1 day in this man's mentorship, let alone 20 years, speaks volumes about his inner feelings about race in America" So does that mean all the Catholics who continue to attend parishes that have admitted to having priests molest children and covered it are also in favor of pedophilia? Date: Tue Mar 18 18:30:00 2008 Sender: Bill Edwards To me the REAL issue with Obama's Pastor is not racism but his total ANGER and HATRED toward his own country...America. It is simply mind boggling to me that this man could hate his country so much. Date: Tue Mar 18 18:49:09 2008 Sender: Kyle Mayhugh Too Why? Do you think America is universally good for everyone? Out of 300 million people-plus, not one is worse off because of the country and culture? The idea that everyone must love America has always befuddled me. Date: Tue Mar 18 18:53:44 2008 Sender: AJ Perko this is crap... I thought OBAMA had a Muslim terrorist mentor? Now it's this guy. yup- I love to see the right so afraid of this guy. What's "Swift Boat Tactic" is next? Date: Tue Mar 18 18:55:52 2008 Sender: AJ Perko "There should be questions regarding Obama's relationship with a racist," Ever been to Texas? Tom Delay anyone? Date: Tue Mar 18 18:57:55 2008 Sender: Bill Edwards Kyle you are too smart to make such a dumb statement. All I know is that if my Pastor spewed anti-American hate from the pulpit it would not be tolerated. Date: Tue Mar 18 20:54:23 2008 Sender: Kyle Mayhugh Too That's fine. But it shouldn't boggle your mind. There are rational, reasonable people out there who hate America. Some of them may even have a good reason. Date: Tue Mar 18 23:09:55 2008 Sender: Christopher E Smith These are pretty much the responses I figured I would get from that message. Perhaps if we had the rest of Wright's sermons for the past 35-40 years we would hear differently. Or maybe if those YouTube videos were longer than 10-20 seconds each we would hear more of the points being made. Would it really matter to any of you? Obviously not. Does it matter that Obama denounced these comments, and strongly opposes them? No, that's not good enough. This man (Obama) has had rumor after rumor circulate about him from Day 1, most of it downright ridiculous. But people believe it, the media thrives on it, yet he has been able to deal with it in a classy manner. This man is not even a "full black man", if you will...a Kenyan father, a white Kansan mother, born in Hawaii, then raised by his white mother and her white parents in America. His grandfather defended our country in Gen Patton's army, while his grandmother worked in a bomber factory (to defend our country). But no....Barack is NOT patriotic, he will NOT say the Pledge of Allegiance, he will NOT wear the American flag pin on his suit. His father was originally from Kenya, so that means Barack MUST be a MUSLIM with political ties and agenda with Kenya. Oh, not to mention his middle name HUSSEIN most definitely means he is a MUSLIM, and if there were any doubts still, the picture of him in the Kenyan garb most certainly confirmed that he is a MUSLIM, and NOT a Christian! He was most definitely a key figure in dirty politics with Rezko in Chicago. He has been going around the country, filling major arenas with a "cult" following in a "rock star" fashion, and worst of all...he has been filling millions of Americans, including a HUGE part of our young people, with something just horrible called HOPE! Therefore, since he is such a popular figure, has ties to the East, wore a turban, will unify the country as well as the world, he MUST BE THE ANTI-CHRIST!!! Yes, I have heard that from multiple people. What have I left out? Oh, the topic of the day/week - Rev Wright. Obama has been a member of Rev Wright's church for 20+ years, was married in the church by Wright, had his children baptised there, so obviously everything that Rev Wright says, Obama believes. Obama will not disassociate himself from Wright, which confirms that he thinks exactly as Wright does, and agrees 100% with everything that spews from Wright's mouth. This also re-affirms that he (Obama) has ties to Louis Farakhan, even though he denounced AND rejected Farakhan's support. So everyone is in agreement with all of the above, right? So why does Obama want to be president of the United States? If he does indeed HATE this country so passionately, why would he want that? Why would he want to unite the people, get the 2 parties to work better together, to stimulate the economy, provide healthcare...for Heaven's sake, most of all rekindle much-needed patriotism and a sense of faith in our government from ALL of us, including our young people? Does it mean anything that Rev Wright has been a figure in Obama's life like another grandfather? Who would dis-own or separate themselves from a grandfather? Because Barack's white mother had a fear of black men, and frequently referred to them using racial slurs, should Obama disassociate himself with her? Does it mean anything that Wright was the most major influence on Obama in his decision to become a Christian? A Christian with a Christian wife, with Christian children? I know in my family history, I had a grandfather, uncles and very close friends, including one who had been a minister (no kidding at all) of the family, who very openly hated and disrespected black folks, or in their words "n***ers." But they were my family, and well-respected friends of the family. Did I disassociate myself from them? Of course not. Did I disagree with what they said, the way they talked, the way they thought? You better believe it. My own father and I did not agree on everything, but he was my father. Why have I wasted my time and your time? I have no idea. Obviously you all have expressed over and over your thoughts and opinions on Obama - this forum is full of it, in more ways than one. I thought we had a very open-minded group here, but obviously not when it comes to something like this. Now spit at me, stone me, and explain to me how I am being ignorant and/or anti-American because of my choice in candidates. Oh, and because I have unrealistic hope. Date: Tue Mar 18 23:28:44 2008 Sender: Christopher E Smith Here's another tidbit that came out before the Texas-Ohio primaries to show what a horrible effect that Sen Obama has had/is having on our young people: From: Barbara St. Aubrey Date: Sat, Mar 1, 2008 at 2:52 PM Subject: I am compelled To: Dana Twombly Dana - if you want to see the affect Obama is having please read this from my daughter... -----Forwarded Message----- From: Katha Underwood Sent: Mar 1, 2008 2:37 PM To: Katha Underwood Subject: I am compelled I am compelled To my Texas friends: This is scary to write...as I fear rejection from you, however this is very important to me. As you know I live in North Carolina now and our primary is not till MAY!!! I feel futile. My vote may have little value by that time. If you have DECIDED to vote Republican. You need not read this. If you have DECIDED to vote for Hillary. You need not read this. (I will honor that you have good reasons for your decisions.) HOWEVER if you have NOT decided FOR SURE! Please Read ...you may be still wavering who to vote for. You may have yet to decide to vote at all on Tuesday... There may be a part of you not completly Republican or not completely convinced Hillery is your gal. I would love to give you a personal view of how Obama has already changed my life and lives around me. I teach high school students in the foothills of Appalachia...the foothills of poverty. I have primarily white poor as well as black and Hispanic and mixed race in my classes. 50% live in poverty. Obama has offered my students inspiration to be something more than they thought they could be. And they are eating it up!!!! It's the first time many have ever cared about politics and I have had a dozen students tell me that their parents have never voted and have always been angry at politicians. But they are voting this time. I am not saying I completely agree with the man's politics... But to have 2 whole class periods (my class periods are 90 minuets long) where the students are asking questions faster than I could answer...because they do not understand the system....and NOW they want to know. What does it mean to be a Democrat or a Republican? What is a caucus and a primary? When does North Carolina get to vote? Do we get a caucus or primary? Who was JFK? What happened to John Edwards? (as you know Edwards is from North Carolina but you may not know how much folks here truly love the guy...including myself) The questions went on and on...and on. Do you think a black man can REALLY become President? My Grandma says they will NEVER let him be President...if he makes it some white guy will shoot him for sure. Mrs. Underwood do YOU think someone will shoot him? Honestly, I had a lot of fast soul searching to do. Should I spend my class time teaching civics or refocus the class and teach the curriculum that I am held accountable for at exam time??? (something called NCLB... how ironic) I reminded them that they should have learned a lot of this in "Civics" class by now. The answer was..."It was not important then." "I didn't care then" "I never thought a person like me could ever be President." "It had nothing to do with me". One of the smarter kids said, sarcastically, "Kerry or Bush...now THAT was something to get excited about!" The class burst into laughter. So I shelved my curriculum for a couple of days... I have just taught the best civics lessons I could. We listed in columns general differences between Democrats and Republicans...and added a few other parties. We looked up the CNN web site and checked out the caucus and primary states. Even though I already knew we vote in May...I had them research when NC votes. One black girl's grandma keeps telling her someone will shoot Obama... her family believes the white folks will never let a black man be President. The white kids re-acted to that assertion/accusation. I loved the discussion we had about that. It was testy at times and I even felt uncomfortable. But they laid it all out on the table and we talked it through. So many of the kids relate to Obama....it was like he was the common denominator that made the discussion work. They relate to Obama because he is black and of mixed race...the white kids talked about him because his mother was a teen mom and his dad left him...like their dad left them. They talked about how his grandparents raise him most of his youth. Most all of them wanted to know how he got to this successful point in his life when he was just like them when he was younger. It was if to say...if he can do it ...so can I. I truly wanted to offer them a non bias perspective. But only 5 of my students will actuality be old enough to vote in Nov...and only 2 will be old enough to vote in the primary. AND by May it will likely all be decided. So I felt safe if I unintentionally was not fair to all the candidates. I mostly wanted to support learning about their country and how they could all be a part of deciding their own futures. Not just jumping back into all the apathy we see day in and day out. I know Obama inspires these kids...and their families. I asked them..."What do you think Obama means by "Change"? What Changes is he going to make? I was surprised by their answers and I started holding back my tears. I will quote: "He is Changing us." "He is asking us to Change". "He is expecting us...me, to do...be my best." "Mrs. Underwood, he made us have this talk." "He made me want to learn more about voting" "He makes me feel like "I can"...I can do what I really want to" "He made me understand everyone in this class more" So my Texas friend, you can see....I am truly supporting Obama...with my meager financial donations, and I hope I have inspired you to vote for Obama on my behalf. For my students, for their families. For the Change yet to come. So someday soon ...we can stop chanting "Yes We Can" ....and you, my students, and I can all look back and say "Yes We DID!"...."We ALL did it togeather!" Thanks for you time, Katha Date: Wed Mar 19 00:25:02 2008 Sender: Henry Morgan Can we please stop with the Obama spamming? Date: Wed Mar 19 00:54:21 2008 Sender: Christopher E Smith That was one e-mail Henry. You certainly have much more to say than that. Date: Wed Mar 19 06:18:53 2008 Sender: Mike Boofer Chris- You are way overreacting IMO. NO CANDIDATE should go unchallenged. Especially Obama. He has a very small track record, so clearly we have to question every facet of the man before we should rally behind him. I'm not impressed by his voting record, but he is a wonderful speaker. His change is entirely to undefined for me. I want more specifics, but then again I want that from EVERY candidate. Are associates fair game? YES. Religion? YES. Always have been. However, even more so now. The media and liberal attack dogs have constantly berated us with "Bush is a puppet" remarks- hinting that Daddy Bush, Rove, and Cheney ran things(maybe correctly). That makes association with radicals an important issue in this debate. He has handled these in a great way IMO. As for our reaction to the letter, I was outraged by the thing. Let's just accept that black men all can say these kinds of thing. NO. I won't accept that. EVERYONE should be accountable for comments they make. Sound bites don't show everything. I know that, but in this case I've heard the context and I don't like the message. I'm not just gut reacting. I've done my best to hear as much of them as I can. I think the God damn America comment was wrong, but I can accept the point that he was going for-and disagree with it. The Aids thing that I paraphrased above I will NOT accept. Farrakhan (sp?) I reject wholly and without question. That guy is a waste of human flush- and yes I spelled that (FLUSH) correctly. Right now I might stay home for the election. At this point I wouldn't vote for either Obama or McCain. Hillary MAYBE. Obama still has plenty of time to sway me. McCain likely can't. Date: Wed Mar 19 06:20:53 2008 Sender: William Johnson I was able to hear much of his speech, yesterday, and I don't think he said what I needed to hear. I fully appreciate and acknowledge his stance on racism (I don't think it was nice that he threw his grandmother under the bus), I agree there is a racism problem and it needs to be addressed. I agree he can be friends with the pastor. I agree that Obama is everything he claims to be, I have no reason to doubt Obama or his belief on racism in America. It isn't Obama's belief on racism that I have the problem with. I have a problem with his ability to discern what is right from wrong. What I didn't hear was Obama explaining why he could continue going to the church when he (undoubtedly) knew what Pastor Wright's belief on racism was. How could you know a guy for 20+ years and not get to know him?? If he knew, then he shows bad judgement by continueing going to the church in spite of the teachings being taught. If he did not know, then Obama is a gullible person and is not yet qualified to be president. If he can't figure out what a person is like after 20+ years, then how can he be expected to negotiate with world leaders who won't necassarily tell him the truth, either? Either way, Obama shows bad judgement for: 1)staying in the church when he knows what is being taught, 2)not figureing out that Pastor Wright had the feelings he did about white people. " So does that mean all the Catholics who continue to attend parishes that have admitted to having priests molest children and covered it are also in favor of pedophilia? " To answer Brain's concern. I don't think Obama's situation is a 'are you in favor of ...' question, this is a question of 'are you aware enough to know when you're being duped'. If you continue to attend a parish that harbours or teaches pedophilia, I think you are making a poor judgement choice. Especially, if you personally knew the pedophile. But, knowing the pedophile doesn't make you a person who supports pedophilia, you just know one. Would you let the pedophile teach your children or would you take your kids somewhere else? And, continueing your pedophile thought, if one Catholic church (or many) have a problem with pedophiles, do you think they ALL do? " There are rational, reasonable people out there who hate America. Some of them may even have a good reason. " Kyle, I agree with you, there are rational, reasonable people who hate America for good reasons. But, I don't think I would attend a church where the message from the pulpit is that. Whether he's reasonable or rational. Would you continually attend a church that teaches the opposite of the way you believe? Date: Wed Mar 19 07:51:54 2008 Sender: Brian Pate William, I completely agree with your repsonse on what I said as well as this being more of a judgement issue. I was using the statement I made to show the ridiculousness of the 'guilt by association' theory that people are assigning to this. I've see many pundits and posts assuming Obama shares and supports those beliefs because he attends that church so I'm just trying to point out that's hardly the case. Any Catholic (or any person for that matter) in their right mind doesn't support the parishes/dioceses that hid child molestation and they certainly don't condone the actions of the priests that were involved. Basically, just using some peoples' argument against them to prove the fallacy of it. Date: Wed Mar 19 08:19:38 2008 Sender: Henry Morgan Chris, but it is me saying it. Not me forwarding some Obama-supporting spam from someone that doesn't post on this board. Not to mention that these emails are surpassing even my stuff for length. Want me to subscribe to some McCain email listserv and start putting every supporter's comments and spam on here? I don't think anyone would want that. Date: Wed Mar 19 09:18:53 2008 Sender: AJ Perko the guy took the topic head on... that already puts him head and shoulders above any slimy Karl Rove candidate that would have attempted to slip out of it, or Hillary who would have refused to comment. People are simply afraid of Obama because he threatens the right wing corporate machine, and they know it. It will get really ugly if he wins the nomination. We have seen in the past the Republicans have no class, ethic, morality, when it comes to slandering an opponent for political gain... heck where is McCain's black love child? or Kerry's cowardly two tours in Vietnam? Date: Wed Mar 19 10:56:25 2008 Sender: Henry Morgan Obama is a threat to any corporate interest, right-wing or not. Date: Wed Mar 19 11:45:12 2008 Sender: Kyle Mayhugh Too " It is simply mind boggling to me that this man could hate his country so much." I'm not saying I would keep going to the church or even like the person who said it. I'm just saying it shouldn't be mind-boggling. Sometimes I get the feeling Americans are genuinely surprised that anyone might not like the country. Date: Wed Mar 19 11:53:34 2008 Sender: Christopher E Smith I don't think I'm overreacting, Mike. I'm not all fired-up with my blood pressure raised about this, as some may think. I'm merely stating a different view of all of this Obama stuff for conversation since everything I have read has been anti-Obama. I'm not taking or making any of this personally - this is only for conversation. Henry - sorry for the one spam. I thought it proved a good point about the difference that Obama's presence in this presidential race has already created, win or lose. We all have to admit, regardless of what "side" we're on, that there has been a renewed since of optimism and interest in our young people. Is that due to McCain? No. Hillary? Maybe some of the young pro-chicks. Obama. You better believe it. Is that alone a reason to elect him? Certainly not. But it is refreshing to see our young people get excited about their country and about their government. My twin 16-yr old boys have never felt the same level of patriotism and pride in their country that I have always felt. Where I would give my life for my country at a moment's notice, they're a part of the "I don't care", "Whatever" generation who will go thru the motions of saying the Pledge of Allegiance and standing quietly before a game for the Star Spangled Banner, but that's it. Why? They have never seen anything very positive in their lives about true American patriotism. Everything this young generation has seen in the world in their lifetimes has been negative. The last president we had to restore a very strong sense of patriotism and government pride among our people was Ronnie Reagan - the first president I was old enough to vote for, and damn proud of it. The Cold War was then ended, and our country went on to thrive in what was my "hay day" - the early 80's, in which videos came out, MTV was born, computers took hold (even though it was the Commodore Vic 20 - and I had one!), but we were booming! Obama is the first candidate to come along bringing hope to restore that patriotism, and a positive view and pride in our government since Ronnie. Is he going to do this magically? Of course not. But my goodness...this is at a time when our country is in the worst condition I have ever seen it in in my lifetime. We have all of the people screaming about the war (which NO I am not one of them), we're right on the verge of one million people losing their homes to foreclosure (and I believe that the additional interest cut yesterday is again too little, too late to help these people). Have the first two cuts this year really helped residents to keep their homes? I'm still in shock and embarassment over the way our feds handled (sorry...DIDN't handle) the catastrophes not just in New Orleans, but all of the South that was hit by Katrina, as well as the other hurricanes, tornadoes, floods, etc. We sure as hell were right on the spot when the tsunami hit "which-ma-call-it" a couple of years back, but we sure as hell weren't for our own country's disasters. That is troubling, and there is no excuse for it. Are we any more ready today for a big city disaster, such as 9/11? Nope. Are we facing dire straights concerning the prices of gas and even food for our families? Damn right. I voted for Bush - I don't regret doing so. It makes me sick to hear all of the Dem's pointing fingers directly at Bush for every problem we're having. Especially things that were voted on by those exact Dem's doing the finger-pointing. Do I think Bush could've done more? Absolutely. Even Nixon stepped in to put a price-freeze on fuel and food in the early 70's. Couldn't Bush have done more to help our natural disaster victims? Well yeah. I was disgusted to see him land in Tennessee after they had been devastated with the recent tornado (the one that leveled the university). He gave those residents and 800 number to call! They were standing amid the rubble that was once their homes, and he gives them an 800 number! And then he said their good neighbors would be assisting them in recovery. Wow! Those people must've been touched. I was nauseated. But I also HATE to hear anybody down our president. I hate that about the how the parties operate, and especially in a campaign for the presidential nomination, and they openly attack him, ridicule him, blame him for all wrongs. When the bottom line is he is still our president, and we all need to support him no matter what. I got way off on a tangent, but that expressed many of my views so you all know I didn't just conveniently flip and immediately accept all views of Dem's - that's not the case. I only did so to cast my vote in the primary for Barack and against Hillary. You out-of-staters need to know that in Ohio we HAVE to declare our party and vote for someone only in that party in a primary - we aren't free to choose whoever. But back to Obama... I still see him as a person who can bring about many positive changes for this country. How could our country get any worse off than we are right now? This guy is open and honest about everything - he has his entire record publicly displayed. He denounced the Reverend's comments as "outrageous and inappropriate", he doesn't feel the way Wright does - base (should be) closed. I have no proof, but would gamble that Wright's teaching of his entire life have not been about hatred of the white man, anti-Americanism, and so on, but about Christianity. But the fact remains that Obama clearly addressed those issues, and is not trying to hide anything else from the American people. Hillary has still not released her tax returns, her records from her tenure as first lady, has not been forced to address Whitewater, hers and Willie's involvement with Peter Paul (whose trial is supposedly currently going on), and who knows what else. McCain - he only needs to disclose his medical records, which he is going to - I have no doubts about him. But I also don't see much improvement coming from McCain in many of our most major areas of need - healthcare being the biggie. Date: Wed Mar 19 12:42:15 2008 Sender: Joshua MacOscar "Does it mean anything that Rev Wright has been a figure in Obama's life like another grandfather? Who would dis-own or separate themselves from a grandfather?" Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaak. There is a difference between a grandfather and an uncle-type figure. Obama seems like more of a divider than a uniter. That is probably because anyone that does not vote for Obama is wrong, right guys? Date: Wed Mar 19 14:33:54 2008 Sender: Henry Morgan Chris, it wasn't just you. There was another email copy before yours. As important as Reagan's election was, I dare say that this election is more important, and the issues more direct. "Making America feel good about itself again" as Reagan did is not enough, particularly if it comes packaged with a punch to the gut of the private sector. Economically, we're in a pay-me-now or pay-me-later scenario. So long as we continue to inflate the currency (especially at never-before-seen levels), we're going to continue to flounder economically. Just like in the 70s, part of the reason oil is so expensive is because our dollar is worth so little. That's why oil has gone through the roof where natural gas has not (oh it's up, but not as much as oil, natty actually looks undervalued). Thus far, Bernanke has not shown the guts to do what Paul Volcker did and that's shut off the money spigot, knowing that it would cause a recession. A point will come at which he will run out of bullets, and will have no choice. Militarily, I actually don't dislike some of what Obama says (particularly about giving the Iraq government a kickstart). However, I think his ideas are borne of political expediency and not conditions in the AOR. I think we owe it to the Iraqis to leave when the country is as safe and secure as we can make it, whenever that is. Maybe that's now, maybe it's not. I think his comments on sending troops into Pakistan were irresponsible given the complicated situation that exists there. Heh you think we have a problem now...Pakistan has the 6th most people in the world, has nuclear weapons capability, and more ethnic and political factions than I want to know about. Date: Wed Mar 19 14:45:06 2008 Sender: Joshua MacOscar Yeah but he has the audacity of hope. That alone should make him a president for as many terms as he wants. Date: Wed Mar 19 14:46:55 2008 Sender: AJ Perko out of curiosity- instead of Obama's african descent, he has Muslim ties, he knows this person or that.. what is it that makes him so much more a horrible candidate than any other liberal? Date: Wed Mar 19 14:54:41 2008 Sender: Henry Morgan That his self-avowed mentor is a race-baiter that hates America? Or maybe that he's a socialist? Date: Wed Mar 19 15:09:12 2008 Sender: Joshua MacOscar "what is it that makes him so much more a horrible candidate than any other liberal?" Pretend he is a republican and you'll have your answer. Date: Wed Mar 19 15:11:21 2008 Sender: Henry Morgan Obama, a Republican? I'm scared. Hold me. Date: Wed Mar 19 15:56:40 2008 Sender: Christopher E Smith "what is it that makes him so much more a horrible candidate than any other liberal?" "Pretend he is a republican and you'll have your answer." BINGO! Old Lyme is our winner! haha! Also, flip McCain to the Dem's since so many of the GOP sill won't accept him. Date: Wed Mar 19 18:54:49 2008 Sender: AJ Perko "Pretend he is a republican and you'll have your answer." Good Point. We wouldn't be able to beat him. ---------------------- BTW... I say damn America for it's treatment of the native Americans and it's slavery & treatment of blacks. It's shameful. If your proud of that, what the hell is wrong with you? It is one of the ugliest things in our history. also, I believe we brought on 9/11 with our foreign policy and corporate driven government. We have known for 1000 years that there are a ton of crazy's in the middle east. We couldn't be happy just buying oil, our greedy corprotacracy had to get more involved. The place is like a crazy beehive. We stuck our face in their and got stung. It should have been expected. WOW- I guess I'm as crazy as Obama's pastor. Date: Wed Mar 19 19:16:29 2008 Sender: Vinchenzo Ramzini Unfortunately,,,,most White americans ancestors did not own slaves,,,,most white americans are decended from POST 1900 IMMIGRANTS,,,,WHY DO WE HAVE TO PAY FOR WHAT THE ENGLISH SETTLERS DID?,,,,,most americans are not of english decent, most slave owners were. I DISAGREE with mr. OBAMAS pastor,, it is a small minority of RICH WHITE PEOPLE who benefitted from slavery at this point. and BLACK AMERICA got their rights not all that long after the Italians, Irish, and Poles basically started being treated as equals. I hope this does not come off wrong but..........................the AFRICAN AMERICANS are the MOST PROSPEROUS AFRICAN DECENDED POPULATION ON THE PLANET!!!!!!!!! RACE OR ETHNICITY plays a part of nearly EVERY NATION ON THIS EARTH. RACISM WILL ALWAYS PLAY INTO SOCIO-ECONOMICS EVERYWHERE AND ALWAYS. TODAYS AFRICAN AMERICANS STAND NEARLY AS GOOD A CHANCE OF SUCCESS AS A WHITE MAN> REVEREND WRONG WILL NOT BE HAPPY UNLESS THE BLACK MAN ENSLAVES THE WHITE MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!! Date: Wed Mar 19 19:19:20 2008 Sender: Vinchenzo Ramzini AND DONT TELL ME HE WOULD NOT WANT THAT<<<<<<<<<< HE IS A HATEFUL RACIST Date: Wed Mar 19 19:28:52 2008 Sender: Kyle Mayhugh Too I was dubious through the first six exclamation points. The seventh sold me. Date: Wed Mar 19 19:54:44 2008 Sender: AJ Perko In 1950 we were still lynching people in the south, segregating whites and colors in every imagineable way. Those people are still alive. You should tell them how great they have it and how America doesn't owe them shit. True, a wealthy born minority may have a better chance to make it big than your equally wealthy born white person. The key word is wealthy. on average, being born black will mean a tougher life than being born white right now...... I'm certainly not to blame, and I'm not throwing out a free-pass because your black- but I don't wave a Republican flag and pretend were all equal because the occcasional exceptional individual makes it out of the ghetto. Date: Wed Mar 19 20:28:20 2008 Sender: Vinchenzo Ramzini Rev. Wrong..........."Hillary doesnt know,,,,because she has never been called a N----R" no sir you are 100% correct.........but you sir do not know because you have never been called a CRACKER. You dont think white people are treated unfairly in the ghetto? well sir i can tell you from EXPERIENCE that they are. Date: Wed Mar 19 20:37:12 2008 Sender: Christopher E Smith "REVEREND WRONG WILL NOT BE HAPPY UNLESS THE BLACK MAN ENSLAVES THE WHITE MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!! AND DONT TELL ME HE WOULD NOT WANT THAT<<<<<<<<<< HE IS A HATEFUL RACIST" Wow! Vinchenzo, those words are very racially charged words by themselves. Unless you have been in attendance at Rev Wright's church throughout his career, or have done extensive research into every sermon he has preached, I think this is an ASSUMING, RACIST and IGNORANT comment. Perhaps if we had been given more than 10-20 seconds of video, we would hear that his "God damn America" was said in much the same way that AJ just said "BTW... I say damn America for it's treatment of the native Americans and it's slavery & treatment of blacks." In fact, I believe that sermon was right after 9/11, so those words were probably being used in much the same manner that AJ made his next statement in the same post. The words the reverend used sickened me, and I don't believe church is the place for that. But apparently this is quite common in other types of churches around the country. But certainly a few seconds of a YouTube video are not enough to condemn a man as being a "hateful racist", and a man who wants to enslave white Americans. Date: Wed Mar 19 20:43:35 2008 Sender: Morris Cohen I have no doubt the Republicans will be out in full force defaming Obama in every conceivable way, with or without the explicit support of John McCain (whom I think would also make a fine president). But what will decide this election is something Republicans will not be able to stop. Obama is creating his own voting bloc. Turnout will fly through the roof -- on his account alone. That's a guarantee. The swift boat crowd can spend millions calling Obama a racist anti-American Muslim or whatever slurs they concoct, because nothing will stop this. The divisive Vietnam War generation has had its turn running American politics, and it's been a disaster. Sit down -- your time is up. It's time for a new generation. Date: Wed Mar 19 22:33:03 2008 Sender: Henry Morgan I liked all this dawning of a new day hullaballoo better when the Democrats used the same card when Bill Clinton was running. Maybe Obama will get the benefit of a Ron Paul or someone running as an independent and allowing the same liberal bloc to be enough to win, just like happened for Clinton. I think the idea of electing a guy in the middle of an economic malaise that would raise taxes and slap business with hardships is not a good idea. Date: Thu Mar 20 05:17:41 2008 Sender: William Johnson " WOW- I guess I'm as crazy as Obama's pastor. " You didn't need to tell us that ;) So, anyone with good judgement will stay away from your church, too. " In 1950 we were still lynching people in the south, segregating whites and colors in every imagineable way. Those people are still alive. " Can anyone say; Robert Byrd?? Now, a proud leader of the democratic party. " but I don't wave a Republican flag and pretend were all equal because the occcasional exceptional individual makes it out of the ghetto. " Which flag do you wave while pretending? Date: Thu Mar 20 05:58:06 2008 Sender: Mike Boofer Although, as I've stated, generally I find the reaction to his comments absurdly over the top, Rev Wrights comments were a shocking sound bite. Much like the situation with Imus. Obama quickly attacked Imus, not willing to look at THE ENTIRETY of Imus's career. He won't go as far with the Rev. Perhaps it is loyalty, perhaps he just believes the soundbites against whites are more acceptable. Either way, it shows me that Barrack is being very dishonest in this situation. Just as a point, yes Fox News called this to my attention. I NEVER watch fox news, but I stopped to check on my mother (a staunch Dem) last night and she was watching (sick of MSNBC- doesn't like evening CNN). I did research it this morning however. http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=3031317 Date: Thu Mar 20 08:39:26 2008 Sender: Henry Morgan That's a great point Boofer. I guess the moral is "it's ok to be a racist with a microphone, just so long as you're not white." Date: Thu Mar 20 09:22:04 2008 Sender: AJ Perko I found the real reason Republicans fear OBAMA: WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Democrat Barack Obama would take an active role in U.S. oil markets as president, tackling concerns about the dominance of large oil companies and eyeing the Strategic Petroleum Reserve as a potential weapon to combat high prices, his top energy adviser said. The presidential hopeful's adviser, Jason Grumet, told Reuters that an Obama administration would crack down on any competition lapses in the sector that have resulted from big corporate mergers. - Oh no!!!! not our beloved oil companies!!!!!!!!! Date: Thu Mar 20 09:38:33 2008 Sender: Henry Morgan Duh he would do this for everything. Tapping the Strategic Petroleum Reserve is a stupid idea right up until there is no other choice. That's why it's there, as a last-ditch desperation measure to hold us until we can come up with a better idea in a shortage scenario. Not as a temporary stopgap to try to lower prices, particularly when it wouldn't work anyway. Like trying to fill Lake Mead with a bucket brigade. And what's his plan to replenish it after it's been used to manipulate markets for political gain? Buy more at a much higher price than was originally paid for what he just squandered? Sounds like a fabulous plan. Of course Obama would take an active role in oil (and other) markets and industries because he's a socialist that thinks he can do it better than people can for themselves. LOL competition lapses...what the hell is that? People just decide to stop trying to make money? As long as there is self-interest, there will always be competition. Even a monopoly is not a monopoly in the long run. There is no oil monopoly, there is no energy monopoly. Date: Thu Mar 20 20:13:04 2008 Sender: AJ Perko competition lapses are exactly what I talked about in the other thread, there is no competition. PS.. check your history January 8, 1982 who was President? Thats right, every Conservatives idol Ronald Reagan. decided good old Laizze-fairre capitalism just wasn't cutting it with the telephone industry and stepped in. Funny how that Conservative amnesia is so selective. It's time someone who hasn't been bought off steps in and puts an end to this oil tyranny. Date: Thu Mar 20 20:48:38 2008 Sender: Henry Morgan Wow, telecom and oil couldn't be any more different if they tried. Date: Thu Mar 20 20:54:38 2008 Sender: AJ Perko well you just let me know which industries the gov't can keep in check and which ones are above the law. Date: Thu Mar 20 21:09:21 2008 Sender: William Johnson Which industry is Teddy Kennedy in? He seems to be above the law. Date: Thu Mar 20 21:16:01 2008 Sender: Henry Morgan AJ, you'll know as soon as they take up permanent residence in Dubai. Date: Fri Mar 21 06:41:27 2008 Sender: William Johnson " Funny how that Conservative amnesia is so selective. " AJ, I thought you stopped going to church. Assuming I remember that correctly, please explain to me why you stopped. I realize this question is taking this post back on subject but it couldn't be helped...sorry. AJ, explain, please, did you just get tired of going? Did you find the message no longer appealling? Did you disagree with what the pastor was teaching? If you knew of a pastor who taught the conspirisy theories you whole-heartedly believe in would you start going to that church? And, would that be the reason for attending? Date: Fri Mar 21 09:57:22 2008 Sender: AJ Perko I don't go to church because I don't believe in it. I think the bible was a social tool and I didn't know Jesus. If I'm home on Christmas I'll probably go with the family, I don't have a problem with it. I think it's good for people. I don't even know who the pastor is. What's the conspiracy theory? He said the exact same thing I beleive. That 9/11 was a result of our involvement in the middle east. DUH. I've said that a million times. and that our country treated blacks like crap. Though I beleive a lot has been done toward equality in the past 30 years or so. I realize those are unpopular opinions to Republicans who like to portray themselves as knights in white armor, loved by everyone etc, and America and American corporations are the direct hand of the Lord or something like that. Date: Fri Mar 21 10:43:17 2008 Sender: Henry Morgan Though I beleive a lot has been done toward equality in the past 30 years or so. *This is why the kind of rhetoric Wright uses is out of place. The past is the past. Very few of us had anything to do with it. We're trying to make things better. Race-baiting and trying to divide isn't helping. Date: Fri Mar 21 13:17:39 2008 Sender: Laurent Boudias You have no idea of how black people are still treated now but you still have a big mouth claiming you know. It's not like 50 years ago, but believe me there's a lot of improvment still to be made. But since you know better than everyone here. Please enlighten us with your knowledge, Mr "I'm-going-to-kick-the-s####-out-of-you-if-you-call-me-baby". It's such a pleasure to read your posts, they put a smile on my face every time I read them. Not the kind of smile you would appreciate obviously. Date: Fri Mar 21 13:44:07 2008 Sender: Henry Morgan You have no idea of how black people are still treated now but you still have a big mouth claiming you know. *JUST WHO THE HELL ARE YOU TO TELL ME WHAT I KNOW AND DON'T KNOW? This is a total gotcha game because there's nothing I do or say here that you can't counter. I can say I've known black people, some of my best friends are black, I used to basically talk to young black people as a profession in a small, rundown town in the south. Doesn't matter. You can still say "but that doesn't mean you feel their pain" or "can understand it" or whatever the hell. ------ It's not like 50 years ago, but believe me there's a lot of improvment still to be made. *BUT IMPROVEMENT IS BEING MADE! If you start out at 0 and count to 100, it's going to take a little bit. But it doesn't help if someone starts yelling out random numbers once you get to 65. But since you know better than everyone here. Please enlighten us with your knowledge, *As mentioned, whatever I say, you'd say it wasn't enough or wasn't good enough or that I didn't really know anything. But I will say this. If you think black folks are the only ones that have ever been mistreated or discriminated against in this country, you're full of crap. We put Japanese in encampments well after emancipation and they were subjected to racism before and after. Don't see Japanese-Americans bitching about past transgressions. Date: Fri Mar 21 13:47:26 2008 Sender: AJ Perko because most of them are dead. Date: Fri Mar 21 14:14:42 2008 Sender: Henry Morgan And so are the blacks that were used as slaves. Thanks for proving my point. Move on, progress is being made...contribute to it, don't drive a wedge between people and try to harm the process while saying that other people are preventing you from helping it. Date: Fri Mar 21 16:49:54 2008 Sender: AJ Perko I don't think it's the former slaves that are mad, as you pointed out they were probably all dead over 100 years ago. But equality didn't magically happen in 1866. It's more the ones that were beaten, fire hosed and lynched during the 1950's and 1960's. There are probably quite a few of those people left, in fact they would only be in there 60's. thanks for reinforcing my point. Date: Fri Mar 21 17:10:34 2008 Sender: William Johnson " What's the conspiracy theory? He said the exact same thing I beleive. " So, you would go to his church and believe him saying that HIV was created by the US to kill black people? Since he says it, you believe it? My point is that if Obama 'really' didn't believe what was being told to him then he would have left that church and found one that taught what he did believe. Or, if he didn't believe it, then he shows poor judgement by staying and supporting a church that teaches that. In my opinion, Obama is in a lose/lose situation (unless he can explain why he stayed in a church that taught racial seperation). Either he believed the message and stayed or he didn't believe it and chose not to leave. Both show poor judgement considering the speech he gave on our need to address the racial injustices in the US. If he believed the message then his speech is a load of bunk or he didn't believe it and his judgement is questionable. Date: Fri Mar 21 18:42:31 2008 Sender: Henry Morgan AJ, none of that changes the fact that progress is being made, has been made, and people like Wright don't do anything to further that. Date: Fri Mar 21 18:47:56 2008 Sender: Kyle Mayhugh Too Neither does brushing them off as crazies. They are people who have the wrong reaction to real problems. Acknowledging that we all see the problems, even if we disagree with on the solutions, is an important step toward marginalizing the appeal of people like Wright. Date: Fri Mar 21 19:17:24 2008 Sender: AJ Perko oh so these were the sermons? The I hate America sermon Sun Dec 8 2007 The George Bush created Aids sermon Jan 9 2008 or these were things this guy just said in an interview. On a Sunday the guy reads some bible verses from a pulpit. Give me a break. Most people don't know what their pastor does in his free time, and I'm smart enough to know probably the last thing on Barrack Obama's mind the past 8 years has been "I wonder how my pastor at that church I hardly ever go to anymore feels about HIV?" ----- PS.. HIV is essentially cured, if your rich. Date: Fri Mar 21 19:58:33 2008 Sender: William Johnson " HIV is essentially cured, if your rich " Of course you believe Bush downed the WTC, too. Date: Fri Mar 21 20:07:41 2008 Sender: Kyle Mayhugh Too That's sort of an overstatement by AJ, but so far it seems as if drug treatments we have now can suppress HIV long enough for a person diagnosed with it to live a long, normal life. Date: Fri Mar 21 22:26:39 2008 Sender: Christopher E Smith Keep in mind the role that the generational differences have played in the media we have seen recently...first by Ferraro, then by Wright. Ferraro insisted that her obviously racist comments were perfectly acceptable, but spoke them as if she was back in 1970. And her attitude was as if she was back in 1970. Actually, her mind probably is back in 1970 = lol. Likewise with Rev Wright...the dude is no spring chicken, just retired, and would no doubt have more of the pent-up angers and frustrations from what he and others went through themselves in the 50's, 60's, 70's, etc. That doesn't make comments from either of them acceptable - nothing does. But it does help to understand where some of the thinking may be coming from in these two individuals. Date: Sat Mar 22 05:47:16 2008 Sender: William Johnson I understand where their thinking comes from. America is a very racist nation. We have been for a long time and still are to a large extent. It isn't limited to whites being the racist ones, although the whites have surely committed nearly all of the most horendous acts of violence in the name of racism ever to occur. Things are getting better, but I understand that we're not there yet. And Obama gave a very hopeful speech that addressed the nations racist concerns. But, that isn't the point. Obama told what he thought about whites, during his youth, in his books. He was an angry black man living in a troubled time period. He attended a church that told the message he believed...why would he leave. However, he said he 'grew up' and learned other ways to express the displeasure of racist treatment. The message in the church didn't change. Apparently, he didn't grow up so much as to understand that if he was going to fully expand his views then he'd need to leave a church that delivered a specific message, one that didn't cure racism-only fueled it. Well, it's time for him to grow up and exhibit better judgement about what he learns and believes. " oh so these were the sermons? The I hate America sermon Sun Dec 8 2007 The George Bush created Aids sermon Jan 9 2008 or these were things this guy just said in an interview. On a Sunday the guy reads some bible verses from a pulpit. Give me a break. " YES, those were sermons. Are those the dates? I don't know. But, considering you know nothing of church services, you are limited on your ability to argue what is being taught during a sermon. When you start attending real church services get back with us and let us know what you learned. Do you want an example of 'firey' Christian sermon? Listen to J. Vernon McGee's "Sunday Sermon" program. You can access it at www.ttb.org 24 hours a day. All his messages are recorded and available on the internet. His sermon's are examples of Christianity taught as a Christian should live. You can download them for free and listen at your leisure. His sermons were recorded during the 21 years he pastored in downtown Los Angeles. Date: Sat Mar 22 21:19:31 2008 Sender: AJ Perko I've been to church. I know more about Christianity than 90% of Christians, and I'll put my money where my mouth is on that. It's disgusting the lengths the Republicans will go to, to discredit a candidate. We've seen it before. I'm sure some GOP scumbag is researching every person Obama's known since grade school looking for anything, to avoid actually taking on Obama himself. Maybe if they can find a high school buddy who went to jail or something, you can discuss that for the next month? I don't know what's sadder, the fact that intelligent people here think this is good politics or that the average American is so stupid he care what a guys old preacher says. In the end, it shrinks our pool of potential leaders to incompetents like GW Bush or nothing. It's a shame, when the crap hits the fan I'll take a John Wayne, instead we get stuck with a David Schwimmer. Date: Sat Mar 22 21:34:58 2008 Sender: Henry Morgan John Wayne = Barack Obama? Someone's gonna have to explain this one. Wayne was the on-screen epitome of individualism and "don't need nothing from nobody" Obama is the face of socialism and "gotta take something from most everybody" Date: Sat Mar 22 22:43:42 2008 Sender: Christopher E Smith How much worse off can our people get than right now?! I don't recall us ever being in this bad a shape in my lifetime, which is longer than most of yours. We have people who can't afford a gallon of milk for crying out loud. How much longer can people afford to drive? $4/gallon will be here any day now. We have 1 million people ready to lose their homes any time now, and no, the interest cuts are not going to help those people at all. No one is. People cannot afford their own medicine, they're even making sacrifices with electricity, heat, etc. My personal situation is one in which I've been driving to nearby county courthouses to do research on records. I'm not far from having to tell the boss that I'm sorry, but I can no longer afford the gas to drive to these counties, thus leaving me without work again. I had to borrow money from my family this month in order to be able to afford my diabetes medication. Things are getting worse everyday. But yet the 99% conservative GOP's on here want to elect McCain, whose economics, healthcare, and whole platform are so close to continuing what we have right now, that it's not even funny! At least this horrible, racist, non-patriotic, socialist, black Muslim gives us something to hope for! Maybe I'll end up regretting that I vote for him (if he doesn't have the nomination stolen from him), much like I'm hating that I voted for Bush, as I see him sitting back watching his & Cheney's fortunes growing astronomically from the oil companies, obviously not giving a shit about all of us struggling Americans. BUT I gotta try something different! Now I apologize for bringing my personal situation into this, but I've had a couple of bad breaks during the last 2 years that could happen to any one of us at any time, and by golly I need healthcare and can't afford it. I am damn sick of a president who hears about a major catastrophe, visits the people for a few minutes on his way to Camp David, and gives them an 800 number to call. I'm sickened by the sights I see in New Orleans - thousand of trailers that sit there not being able to be used, while the people remain homeless and penniless, and end up committing suicide. I'm sick of hearing how much our government continues to spend footing the bill for Irag, while the Iraqi government is pocketing enormous sums of profits off of their own oil production! I'm sick of seeing us deliver so much international aid at a second's notice for events like the tsunami, while our own people remain homeless and hungry. I'm baffled by what everyone here sees in McCain being such a great improvement over Bush, and why Obama is such a joke to you all. I already have been, and will continue to do everything in my power to see that Obama is in the White House in January. Date: Sat Mar 22 23:08:23 2008 Sender: Henry Morgan In today's dollars, milk was almost twice this price around the turn of the century. Until recently, the price of milk hadn't moved significantly in 20 years. If prices going up is your complaint, you should be wanting a true conservative president that will force the fed to tighten monetary policy, nut up and admit we're going into recession, and refuse to use economic weakness as an excuse to consolidate power under the governmental umbrella. Corporate tax increases only serve to increase prices or drive them to another country entirely. Individual tax increases only give people less money with which to buy those things the cost for which is rising, like gas and food and milk and whatever else. Of course the fact that there is no economic conservative in the race may be withstanding, but you get the idea, I hope. Date: Sun Mar 23 05:51:58 2008 Sender: AJ Perko I got news for you Henry... socialism in America is about taking care of our people. Where the hell does the money go? It goes to those who need it. It's not like Barrack Obama keeps it you know. Your support of greed, cruelty and disregard for your fellow unfortunate humans- frankly gets old. Plato said "you can measure the quality of a civilization by how they care for their poor" I think Plato was smarter than you. Date: Sun Mar 23 06:09:21 2008 Sender: William Johnson " I don't know what's sadder,... " I think the saddest part is you don't have a clue that the concern is with Obama not having good judgement. That you would like to have another president who makes poor judgement choices. That you want another president who bombs sovereign countries for no good reason. I think that's the saddest part. After all this discussion on the problem with racism and choices, you still think republicans are 'out to get' Obama. Date: Sun Mar 23 06:50:54 2008 Sender: Dennis Berg I remember the 70's. It started with wage and price freezes. Escalated to gas shortages and long lines. Imagine taking a day off work just to wait in line to fill up and then have the station run out when you were still 5th in line. We ended with double digit inflation, double digit unemployment and double digit interest. The highest tax rate was around 72% for personal taxes. As a nation, we watched as our country left a winnable war. Endured the site of people trying to cling to the rails of the last copters to leave Saigon. Hung our heads in shame as we watched millions of boat people battle the South China Sea to escape the bloodbath we allowed to happen. We watched our nation turn our backs on the Shah and let the Ayatollah take Iran. The highest and lowest points of that decade occurred in early 1980. First the 'Miracle on Ice' in Lake Placid gave America something to feel good about, and then Jimmy's Desert One Debacle in the sands of Iran showed how low this country could sink. I believe Reagan was able to ride the coattails of the hockey team into the White House with his vision of a "New day in America". What this nation doesn't need right now is higher taxes and more government programs. Unfortunately, conservatives have no choice in this election. And no, McCain will not be the 'lesser of two evils' vote for me. I and my principles will look elsewhere. Date: Sun Mar 23 10:55:14 2008 Sender: Henry Morgan Date: Sun Mar 23 05:51:58 2008 Sender: AJ Perko I got news for you Henry... socialism in America is about taking care of our people. Where the hell does the money go? It goes to those who need it. It's not like Barrack Obama keeps it you know. *No it absolutely doesn't. It goes to those who come to depend on it and opt not to attempt to try to do any better. You grew up in the Appalachians just like I did; you should know this. Your support of greed, cruelty and disregard for your fellow unfortunate humans- frankly gets old. *You can call me heartless if you want, but if you settle merely for what someone gives you, what they want you to have is all you'll get. And that has to come from someone else. So if everyone does that, then there's not going to be anyone left to sponge from. Plato said "you can measure the quality of a civilization by how they care for their poor" I think Plato was smarter than you. *I doubt it, honestly. Not to say he wasn't brilliant for his time, but I'm guessing humanity as a whole is much more intelligent now than in his time. Date: Sun Mar 23 13:23:56 2008 Sender: AJ Perko You make it sound as if everyone in the US can just "pull themselves up by their bootstraps" and get a job. - there are like 60 million children in America (stupid union child labor laws!!) - there are like 32 millions severely (mentally or physically) disabled people. - not to mention people that get temporarily disabled, or lose their job whem their company moves off to some Mexican border town. I've heard the conservative social welfare plan of "just go beg at the steps of a church". I'd love to see your ideal world. I imagine it looks something like the black plague riddled Europe of the Dark Ages. --- PS "but I'm guessing humanity as a whole is much more intelligent now than in his time." Not many conservatives believe in evolution, thats refreshing. Date: Sun Mar 23 15:39:19 2008 Sender: Henry Morgan Not necessarily a result of evolution, but rather of compounding of knowledge. I don't know if a couple thousand years is enough to see significant evolution. Date: Sun Mar 23 19:16:27 2008 Sender: Vinchenzo Ramzini he offers "HOPE" ? Hope in one hand,,,crap in the other,,,,,,,,,,,which one fills up first? Date: Sun Mar 23 19:23:27 2008 Sender: AJ Perko you prefer Bushit in one hand, crap in the other? PS... Henry,? Isaac Newton said: "If I have seen farther than others, it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants" The difference is he retained his humilty, something entirely removed from the current conservative ideology. Date: Mon Mar 24 06:39:46 2008 Sender: William Johnson " humilty, something entirely removed from the current conservative ideology. " AJ, is you're arguement; "I know you are, but what am I"... repeated as many times as needed? Date: Mon Mar 24 08:22:05 2008 Sender: AJ Perko well it's pretty much accepted by analysist on both sides the past 8 years was devoid of any humility. If it weren't for GW's braggadaccio, the war in Iraq would not have been handled so poorly. A little modesty, and maybe he would have listened to the people that know more than him. That attitude radiates throughout modern conservative idealology. Date: Tue Mar 25 05:48:56 2008 Sender: William Johnson " If it weren't for GW's braggadaccio, the war in Iraq would not have been handled so poorly. A little modesty, and maybe he would have listened to the people that know more than him. " Wow! You are completely delusional about whose pressure groups caused illogical military strategy in this war. Example: Who REALLY cares that some terrorists were forced to were underwear on their heads or stacked into a pyramid! Who really cares that the Quran has to be handled with 'kid gloves' in order to avoid offending captured enemy! Yet, these 'autrocities' were publically compared and considered equivilant to such war crimes as the Bataan death march.... BY WHO?!? Anyone who believes it was the "braggadaccio" of BUSH that caused the poor handling of the war effort is in immediate need of a professional psychologist and probably in need of complete internment at the local mental institution. I think the many years of steroid use is causing you to prematurely lose your mind, please seek help. Date: Tue Mar 25 09:19:58 2008 Sender: AJ Perko so the homo pyramid....... was the reason GW disbanded the Iraqi army surging hundred thousand military background guys into unemployment and eventual militias? a bag on the head..... was the reason we went in with too few troops, many improperly outfitted (insert Rumsfeld quote) Abu Ghraib.... was the reason GW greatly underestimated the resistence we would face, the amount of time we would be in Iraq hmmmmm, interesing theory. You should probably blame Bill Clinton for something in there. Date: Tue Mar 25 15:21:11 2008 Sender: Henry Morgan The rest of your post is fair criticism, but the "too few troops, many improperly outfitted" dig actually can be blamed on Clinton, fairly directly at that. Date: Wed Mar 26 00:59:13 2008 Sender: Christopher E Smith "And Obama gave a very hopeful speech that addressed the nations racist concerns. But, that isn't the point." (present day) "Obama told what he thought about whites, during his youth, in his books. He was an angry black man living in a troubled time period. He attended a church that told the message he believed...why would he leave. However, he said he 'grew up' and learned other ways to express the displeasure of racist treatment. The message in the church didn't change. Apparently, he didn't grow up so much as to understand that if he was going to fully expand his views then he'd need to leave a church that delivered a specific message, one that didn't cure racism-only fueled it. Well, it's time for him to grow up and exhibit better judgement about what he learns and believes." (when he was a youth or something like that) So let me get this straight William... In Obama's books he said what he thought about whites (which was apparently negative?) during his youth, even though he lived with his white mother and grandparents? In his youth he was an angry black man living in a troubled time? So that was when he began to attend this church who told him the message he wanted to hear - whitey is evil, hate whitey, don't trust whitey (just like Steve Martin in the Jerk). This is the message that he wanted to hear, although his momma and grandparents were white? But then he grew up (even though he was already an angry black man before), he learned differently, expanded his views (I'd say so, being a Harvard law grad), but yet he still wasn't quite intelligent enough to pull himself away from that evil racist message that was being taught in the same church. How many years has he been attending said church btw? So to summarize... What IS important is that he grew up as an angry black man in a troubled time (what that even means I don't know), thinking badly of whites (going by your words), and that he gots his smarts, but not quite enough to knows that he needed ta separates himself from that awful church (which btw was/is a church of Christ in which they worship Christ just as you do in your "perfect Christian" white bread church...and no, not all Christian churches are exactly like yours the way you described it earlier). What is NOT important is the fact that "he gave a very hopeful speech that addressed the nations racist concerns", has delivered an entire campaign message of hope and positivity for ALL Americans (not just da blacks), and wants to unite the greatest country in the world as one. What is not important is that he personally has generated more interest in a single election than any candidate since JFK, spurring people like myself to flip to the Dem side to vote for him, and getting the interest of our college and high school kids like we have never seen it before. Sure, a message of hope is hard for most adults to digest in this day, same as him laying all of his skeletons out on the table in clear view. Delivering a speech to address the nation on racism, and his views, in which he damned those words of Wright's, is not him growing up and using better judgment about what he learns and believes? So all of that is what is NOT important. Right? Do I read you correctly? If I do, I think the question is more one of who REALLY needs to expand their views...and it ain't no Barack Hussein Obama. Date: Wed Mar 26 05:22:39 2008 Sender: Henry Morgan Bottom line is he's been going to this guy's church for years. If I heard stuff like that out of a preacher, I'd never go back again. Date: Wed Mar 26 06:58:43 2008 Sender: William Johnson " What IS important is that he grew up as an angry black man in a troubled time (what that even means I don't know), thinking badly of whites (going by your words), and that he gots his smarts, but not quite enough to knows that he needed ta separates himself from that awful church (which btw was/is a church of Christ in which they worship Christ just as you do in your "perfect Christian" white bread church... " Well, Obama described his youth. Read his books. Obama described his feelings on the "typical white person". Listen to him speak. And, listen to the message the "Church of Christ" (that Obama is a member of) delivered on Easter. Who do they worship? I'm not the only one who needs to expand their views. BTW, I don't attend Vernon McGee's church. He is dead, his teachings continue. I attend a church pastored by a black man from the 'row houses' of Philadelphia. He arrived 20-some years ago to pastor a black church with 35 members. His Christian message does not divide blacks and whites... it unites. You can listen to him, also through the internet, any time you want proof that a black pastor does not have to give a message of division and inequality to allow for Christian beliefs to grow. http://www.enduringtruth.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=6780 Somehow, I get the feeling you'll ignore this invite, much like others do when Christian values are offered. Date: Wed Mar 26 08:30:25 2008 Sender: AJ Perko I decided to look up what Obama "typical white person" quote was- "she is a typical white person, who, if she sees somebody on the street that she doesn't know, you know, there's a reaction that's been bred in our experiences that don't go away and that sometimes come out in the wrong way, and that's just the nature of race in our society." I'd say thats about 100% accurate for most of the places I lived, including now. Date: Wed Mar 26 09:35:04 2008 Sender: Henry Morgan Translation: the typical white person is bred to be a racist. Didn't Jimmy the Greek get fired for less than this? Date: Wed Mar 26 09:38:59 2008 Sender: Mike Boofer While Dusty Baker made nearly identical comments and was not reprimanded. Date: Wed Mar 26 09:40:35 2008 Sender: Henry Morgan But white people are the racists. Date: Wed Mar 26 11:25:32 2008 Sender: Christopher E Smith "BTW, I don't attend Vernon McGee's church. He is dead, his teachings continue. I attend a church pastored by a black man from the 'row houses' of Philadelphia. He arrived 20-some years ago to pastor a black church with 35 members. His Christian message does not divide blacks and whites... it unites. You can listen to him, also through the internet, any time you want proof that a black pastor does not have to give a message of division and inequality to allow for Christian beliefs to grow. http://www.enduringtruth.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=6780 Somehow, I get the feeling you'll ignore this invite, much like others do when Christian values are offered." William, My "perfect Christian, white bread church" comment arose from the way you had previously spoken throughout this thread, portraying ALL REAL Christian churches are in 100% agreement with Vernon McGee's teachings, when in fact there are so many different denominations, each with their own views. That is why I prefer to be a non-denominational Christian. That doesn't mean I decide my own rules, but that I am more of an open-minded Christian, not stuck adhering 100% to Methodist, Lutheran, Baptist, whatever. So don't mistake me for being a non-Christian. I might just tune into your pastor's service some time. But I also still insist that there are a lot of Christian churches around the country who praise the same God, although in different services and teaching methods. I do not think Rev Wright spent his life teaching every Sunday about the evil white man, the evil USA, but that he spent 99.9% of his time preaching on God and Christianity. It was wrong to bring political views into the church (I guess), but he did so, it's over, he's retired, done deal. I happen to believe that Obama was not present at the sermons in question. He has stated over and over and over again that he does not agree with those statements - what more can he do? I don't believe it is very Christian-like to condemn a man based on association. Christianity teaches one to be forgiving, and to not judge others. So why the harsh judgment on Obama? And you say that your present pastor wants to unite blacks and whites. Well, so does Obama! And not just blacks and white, but yellows, browns, greens, whatever, as well as Christians, Muslims, Jewish, and on and on. He wants to unite the entire country. He just never had to address the race issue until he was forced to. Date: Wed Mar 26 12:57:31 2008 Sender: Henry Morgan Too bad video in churches is rare. Obama could be found out just like Hillary's BS about Bosnia was. You took your kid to Bosnia and landed her and you there under sniper fire. Sounds like child endangerment to me. Date: Wed Mar 26 13:08:24 2008 Sender: AJ Perko "Translation: the typical white person is bred to be a racist. Didn't Jimmy the Greek get fired for less than this?" Whats more important Henry-discussing what he means or playing with the rhetoric to try to twist it into some petty point?? Maybe white republican people are just too detatched from reality to understand what he meant. I live in a white neighborhood now, I grew up in a white neighborhood. A black family comes through people notice top to bottom. Thats from upbringing, "bred in", and it's racist. It still exists everywhere. It's not horrible, but it's typical. over. done. - now twist it to say he didn't mean that. Date: Wed Mar 26 14:29:39 2008 Sender: Joshua MacOscar The "typical white person" comment was dumb and racist. It isn't a white trait, it is a trait of the majority. I would bet 7 chicken strips that if a guy that looked like Greg Allman walked into Obama's church, he would be looked at the same way that Obama described minorities being looked at in a white neighborhood. If Obama really wanted to unite people, he wouldn't say stuff like that. Date: Wed Mar 26 14:38:03 2008 Sender: Henry Morgan So because people notice, that makes them racist? If I notice a good looking girl moving into my neighborhood, does that make me a sexist? Or what if I notice an older person moving into an area with mainly younger people? Simply taking note of a difference is in no way racist/sexist/bigoted. It's how you treat those people that makes the difference. I live next to a black family right now, in the same duplex. I noticed they were black, I noticed they listen to hip-hop music, but I don't think of them any differently than the white girls that live on the other side of me. Does the mere fact that I notice that they're black or white make me racist? Not any more than noticing that an apple is red or yellow. Any way you slice it, if you cut through the rhetoric, Obama is saying that white people are racist. Nothing less. Racism will never cease to exist until it ceases to be used. Date: Wed Mar 26 18:04:17 2008 Sender: William Johnson " I don't believe it is very Christian-like to condemn a man based on association. " So, in essence, you're saying that if I attended a church that was pastored by a popular KKK member and stayed in that church for 20 years (even though I missed some of the more racist messages) you wouldn't consider me a racist? Does that also means that McCain shouldn't be denegrated because a racist white pastor is endorsing him (even though he doesn't attend that church)? I believe it is Christian-like to make honest judgements on people based on their actions. KKK members can be judged to be racist, black panther members can be judged to be racist. I certainly won't be the one making final judgement on them, but I certainly won't be attending functions that are produced by these organizations because of my judgement of them. Why would you want to put yourself in a position where evil can put you to the test? I'm not Jesus and cannot say I would pass the tests that Jesus faced from the devil. Date: Wed Mar 26 23:29:54 2008 Sender: Christopher E Smith Read my lips... He did not attend the sermons of the 10-second clips in question! He has condemned those remarks over and over and over again! He gave an incredible speech just about racism in our society. His use of the term "typical white person" was a slip-up just like every one of us has made at one time or another, like referring to black people as "them", "those people", and so on. What more does this man have to do to not be deemed a racist? Obviously there is NOTHING, absolutely nothing he can do to not be viewed as a racist. If he left his church today, it wouldn't matter - he had already been a member there too long. So he is condemned for life. Joshua...I find the use of your example of "chicken strips" to be a racist remark! lol If Gregg Allman walked into MY church this Sunday, he would get the attention of everyone. But I'll bet if I walked into Obama's church this Sunday, I may get some attention, but I would quickly be accepted just as any other person there. You all pay for my flight there this weekend, and I'll be glad to prove it. William - ok, I left myself wide open with that remark. But you had to go and take it to the extreme. You knew the point I was making. If you find it proper for yourself to go ahead and pass your own judgment on Obama based on the info you have, then so be it. Obviously we have a difference of opinion on judging people, as well as forgiveness. Bottom line is...he da bad black man who hate da whitey. Him need ta go back ta Kenya where him camed from. Why couldn't we have one Hillary-supporter on here to argue with instead of far right-wing extremists? Date: Thu Mar 27 06:07:39 2008 Sender: William Johnson " ok, I left myself wide open with that remark. But you had to go and take it to the extreme. You knew the point I was making. If you find it proper for yourself to go ahead and pass your own judgment on Obama based on the info you have, then so be it. " Christopher, Yeah, I know the point you are making and I haven't called Obama a racist once. If you're going to sit there and say I did, show me, because what I remember doing is questioning his judgemental ability. I have been having this very same discussion at media matters. Not one liberal at that site understands what I'm saying either. That tells me that liberals either don't care to listen or are incapable of listening. Please point out any and every time I called Obama a racist! I can show several times I called Wright and/or his church racist, but I do not remember calling Obama a racist once. The closest I've come is when you challenged my right to judge people based on association, I gave you an extreme example (which you failed to address for whatever reason), but I did not call Obama a racist. Now, I know this may be difficult to grasp, but I have consistantly called into question Obama's judgemental ability for not being able to recognize what type of church he has attended for the last 20-some years. " While he may be able to seperate himself from the hateful speech of this pastor, I doubt he will be able to excuse away 'why' he stayed in that church for 20 years. " That is my first response within this thread. Do I call Obama a racist? Read my response from "Wed Mar 19 06:20:53 2008" and you'll get another way of looking at his poor judgemental ability. A very crude comparison, but accurate in it's ability to highlite poor judgement of the attendee. Christopher: " My "perfect Christian, white bread church" comment arose from the way you had previously spoken throughout this thread, portraying ALL REAL Christian churches are in 100% agreement with Vernon McGee's teachings, when in fact there are so many different denominations, each with their own views. " William: " His sermon's are examples of Christianity taught as a Christian should live. " OK, where did I say/imply that ALL REAL Christian churches are in 100% agreement with Vernon McGee. If you're going to argue with the same 'make up quotes as I go' style as another poster I know of, then I'll start responding to your comments like I do his. Date: Thu Mar 27 08:59:47 2008 Sender: Joshua MacOscar "But I'll bet if I walked into Obama's church this Sunday, I may get some attention, but I would quickly be accepted just as any other person there." There is absolutely nothing to support this. Date: Thu Mar 27 09:18:21 2008 Sender: Kevin Caery "Bottom line is...he da bad black man who hate da whitey. Him need ta go back ta Kenya where him camed from. Why couldn't we have one Hillary-supporter on here to argue with instead of far right-wing extremists?" The first quoted paragraph is simply ridiculous, period. As for the second, maybe those who disagree with you only seem to be so 'far-right' because you have chosen to support the man who is farthest to the left in all the Senate (based on National Journal's review of his 2007 voting record). Date: Thu Mar 27 11:27:08 2008 Sender: Henry Morgan Left of Ted Kennedy. Left of Bernie Sanders. Lord. Didn't realize Joe Biden was that liberal. Date: Thu Mar 27 12:59:10 2008 Sender: AJ Perko "So because people notice, that makes them racist? If I notice a good looking girl moving into my neighborhood, does that make me a sexist? Or what if I notice an older person moving into an area with mainly younger people?" um no... RACISM is defined by a belief in "Superior", which again means people are stupid for thinking Obama made a racist comment... your depiction above would be PREJUDICE at heart. "any preconceived opinion or feeling, either favorable or unfavorable." I suppose we could prented like the rest of the anti-Obama crowd is that there is no underlying pre-text to why you noticed other than simply they look different.- and a few of you more self righteous individuals may go so far to claim thats the case....... but anyone whose ever dealt with this on any remotely behavorial level knows thats not how it works. Date: Thu Mar 27 13:52:04 2008 Sender: Joshua MacOscar Are you saying that the anti-Obama crowd doesn't like him because of how he looks? Date: Thu Mar 27 23:06:42 2008 Sender: Henry Morgan If you think Obama wasn't trying to hint to black folks that white folks look down on them, you're just naive or ignorant. The guy doesn't just rattle things off; there's a reason why those words were chosen in that way. I'm about as unafraid of racial and ethnic differences as it gets. I've spent New Year's in Prince George County with a group of black folks I've never met. Have you ever gone somewhere and been the only white person there? I have, a bunch of times. And it's not because I try to "act black." I couldn't possibly act black. I've been well acquainted with poor, middle class and well-off black people built a rapport with people in all three groups. You may call me self-righteous for claiming to be innocent of prejudice, but maybe that says more about you and your skepticism that someone really can be free of prejudice. But, I submit the ultimate racist test. Watch these videos and your reaction will tell you definitively if you are a racist. You don't have to share the verdict with anyone. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGrqW3nx5HM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GautSlgAsN0&feature=related Date: Fri Mar 28 14:03:18 2008 Sender: Henry Morgan YOu can't tell me no one found those clips funny. Date: Fri Mar 28 17:09:55 2008 Sender: AJ Perko "trying to hint to black folks that white folks look down on them" ridiculious. What words would you use? Oh thats right, you think it's a big racial illusion and if a black person walks through some white county town in the middle of Iowa no one will even notice. Date: Sat Mar 29 06:41:59 2008 Sender: William Johnson " Are you saying that the anti-Obama crowd doesn't like him because of how he looks? " I think that's exactly what he's saying. That if you don't like Obama then you are a racist. Based simply on the fact that Obama is black and if you don't like him then you don't like blacks. Date: Sat Mar 29 09:00:57 2008 Sender: Henry Morgan Oh thats right, you think it's a big racial illusion and if a black person walks through some white county town in the middle of Iowa no one will even notice. *NOTICING A DIFFERENCE IS NOT PREJUDICE OR RACISM! That is all. Date: Sun Mar 30 11:29:50 2008 Sender: Laurent Boudias Who here likes Dr Martin Luther King? Just to know whether you are just an hypocrite or not. Date: Sun Mar 30 11:56:38 2008 Sender: Henry Morgan I like Ms. Peachez. Date: Sun Mar 30 16:57:56 2008 Sender: Laurent Boudias Of course, I couldn't expect more from you. Well let's say MLK had the same kind of speech that reverend Wright had in his church and I don't see you all get all emotional about it. It happened that MLK was put on the spotlight after his speech and was killed the following year. Who knows if this is related. Anyway, you are all getting on the bandwagon against Wright but would have nothing to say against MLK. What a bunch of ignorant hypocrites! Date: Sun Mar 30 17:11:22 2008 Sender: William Johnson I like and respect Rev. King. Did he have the kind of speeches Rev. Wright does? Do you have records of him making those kind of speeches? I've heard a lot of his speeches. I do remember hearing him say to achieve change through Biblically sound principles. I'd be interested in hearing any he gave that did not. Date: Sun Mar 30 17:20:57 2008 Sender: Laurent Boudias "And don't let anybody make you think that God chose America as his divine, messianic force to be a sort of policeman of the whole world. God has a way of standing before the nations with judgment, and it seems that I can hear God saying to America, "You're too arrogant! And if you don't change your ways, I will rise up and break the backbone of your power, and I'll place it in the hands of a nation that doesn't even know my name. Be still and know that I'm God." Why I'm opposed to Vietnam speech, MLK, April 1967. So criticizing America was ok for MLK but not ok for Wright? Date: Sun Mar 30 20:48:42 2008 Sender: AJ Perko *NOTICING A DIFFERENCE IS NOT PREJUDICE OR RACISM! That is all. ---------- actually prejudice is any pre-concieved perception. If it was simply a shade of skin, people would not notice. It what it represents to them that they notice. Even if they won't say it. Date: Sun Mar 30 21:24:40 2008 Sender: Henry Morgan Unless of course it represents nothing. Date: Sun Mar 30 22:03:15 2008 Sender: AJ Perko then you wouldn't notice. Date: Mon Mar 31 05:44:41 2008 Sender: William Johnson " So criticizing America was ok for MLK but not ok for Wright? " Yes. MLK uses Biblical principles to produce his criticism. Wright does not. Do you NOT notice the difference? MLK criticizes America for being and acting outside the boundries of God's will. Wright criticizes America for creating diseases to kill the black man. MLK was sowing the seeds for racial harmony, and Wright is sowing seeds for racial seperation. MLK says all men are created equal, Wright says it's the black mans turn to rise up and control things. Slight differences. But, the speech you reference is a good one. Do you have any more speeches of MLK to bring that show he is equal to Wright? Date: Mon Mar 31 07:40:21 2008 Sender: Laurent Boudias Then explain me why at the time, in 1967, MLK was disinvited to the White House, then criticized by the press, to be finally shot the following year? Was he perceived as such as a racial harmony maker? No he was criticizing America and he was perceived then the same way Wright is perceived now. There's no difference in the way these 2 men are treated. Date: Mon Mar 31 08:06:52 2008 Sender: Kevin Caery "There's no difference in the way these 2 men are treated." Oh my gosh, ease off the hyperbole there, Laurent. To even begin to equate MLK's role in 1967 and the public response to him, and Wright's today, is just ridiculous rhetoric intended only to paint Obama's critics as racist. Okay, maybe MLK said some unpopular things way back when, and made a bunch of valid criticisms of our nation and the civil rights of black folks... We've come a long way since then, though, and someone making the same claims today is outdated and controversial just for controversy's sake. And anyone who would seriously compare the two of them is a fool. Date: Mon Mar 31 08:43:17 2008 Sender: AJ Perko I can already see the underlying campaign tactic emerging for November. In typical poor "victim" Conservative Republican fashion. The last election it was the "assault on Christianity" that was used to stir the conservative base and bring out the voters. Things like gay marriage,abortion "in God we Trust" the very fabric of our identity was supposedly under liberal assault! (Never mind that Christians are the most dominant religion in the country, and many powerful people are of that faith and nothing changed regarding those topics in 8 years anyway) In 2008- it will be the "assualt on white people". This "if you disagree with Obama your a racist" is a Republican tactic. It essentially discredits any discussion of issue, without ever having to address it. Obama's health care plan........ don't like it your racist. What's the plan about? doesn't matter NOBODY CALLS ME A RACIST!!!!!! vote Republican. From a tactical standpoint- brilliant as usual (I thought Belichek... I mean Carl Rove retired?) from an ethical standpoint- slimy as expected. Date: Mon Mar 31 08:52:46 2008 Sender: Laurent Boudias Kevin, you are right to say these 2 men cannot be compared. It would be fool. Now let me write again what Wright said and please explain me what is so different than what MLK said in his speech which you can easily find on google and from which I took a brief extract. "God damn America for treating our citizens as less than human. God damn America for as long as she acts like she is God and she is supreme." "We bombed Hiroshima, we bombed Nagasaki, and we nuked far more than the thousands in New York and the Pentagon, and we never batted an eye," "We have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians and black South Africans, and now we are indignant because the stuff we have done overseas is now brought right back to our own front yards. America's chickens are coming home to roost," Date: Mon Mar 31 09:08:00 2008 Sender: Kevin Caery Also: "Racism is how this country was founded and how this country is still run!...We are deeply involved in the importing of drugs, the exporting of guns and the training of professional KILLERS... We believe in white supremacy and black inferiority and believe it more than we believe in God... We conducted radiation experiments on our own people... We care nothing about human life if the ends justify the means!" And: "The government lied about inventing the HIV virus as a means of genocide against people of color." Fine, some of Wright's claims are relatively acceptable political commentary, but others are just outright conspiracy-theory nonsense from a guy just looking to stir the pot. I doubt the great orator MLK would think too highly of a guy who perverts his message into "God damn America!" Frankly, I think Obama did an impressive job distancing himself from Wright's looney-tunes while still maintaining their relevance, and I don't really hold his relationship with Wright against him -- but that doesn't mean anyone should take Wright seriously or give him any more attention than he deserves. Date: Mon Mar 31 09:27:17 2008 Sender: Laurent Boudias Thank you he doesn't deserve all this media crazyness, I agree. In what you wrote, I believe the HIV part is nonsense, the rest is up for debate. Date: Mon Mar 31 16:29:24 2008 Sender: Gregor Ellis C'mon Laurent, while some of the comments Kevin quoted were/are true, a lot more than the HIV accusation is pure BS. "Racism is how this country was founded and how this country is still run!" and "...We believe in white supremacy and black inferiority and believe it more than we believe in God..." - All peoples are racist in that we naturally identify with a group/tribe of like people and view outsiders with suspicion. The USA was not founded to deny rights to anyone nor has any aspect of our history of poor race relations exhibited anything other than progress, albeit slow, to considering every "American" as part of our group. Were and are a lot of people here racist in the way that Wright meant? - sure as are large numbers of people in every country I've been in for any length of time; but the nation was not founded on racist principles. The 1/3 or so of citizens at the time of the Revolution who felt slavery was an abomination has grown to be all but the loony fringe. The large numbers who wanted to deny non-whites equal rights in the 40's and 50's has dwindled to a small fraction and NO politician spouting such BS and bigotry has a shot at a statewide office, let alone a national office these days. If you have kids you can see that the racist idiot crowd will be even smaller as time goes by. Does it excuse our past overt racist policies - no, and we should be ashamed of them - but we are not even close to the conditions that apply in Japan, Korea, China, Israel, any officially Muslim state, Mexico, Brasil, India, and even much of Europe. "We are deeply involved in the importing of drugs..." - Not as a nation. "...the exporting of guns" - A truth. "...and the training of professional KILLERS" - I assume he means the military. I'm not sure what his point is here although if he means to debate whether nations should have a military its valid if ignorant IMO. "...We conducted radiation experiments on our own people..." - True and more here that he could have screamed about including long past sterilization experiments, etc. "...We care nothing about human life if the ends justify the means!" - A valid point of political debate. The US has been one of the quickest to use military force since the beginning of the 20th century and we've had little debate about whether those actions really justified the numbers of dead civilians outside of WWII and Korea. Date: Mon Mar 31 21:00:44 2008 Sender: Laurent Boudias I didn't say everything was true, but it was up to debate. :) Date: Tue Apr 1 06:35:28 2008 Sender: William Johnson I think the other main difference between Wright and King is that Wright still teaches seperation of the races, that one should be given priorities in all circumstances. While King taught that equality between the races is expected when you live Biblically. In other words; Wright is a racist, King is not. 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