Date: Sun Mar 2 08:24:11 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
Has there ever been a historical figure who just flat out knew they were bad
and evil but didn't care?
This isn't the same as misguided. There are plenty of Osama Bin Laden's &
Hitlers who think they are doing something righteous...
but I'm looking for someone who is just solely bad, greedy, evil and doesn't
give a ________. (Dick Cheney doesn't count)
I'm helping the neighbor kid find a subject for a history report-
Date: Sun Mar 2 10:11:04 2008
Sender: Brian Dust
Ghandi
Date: Sun Mar 2 10:37:19 2008
Sender: William Johnson
Hitler
Date: Sun Mar 2 10:42:06 2008
Sender: Jeff Luddingsmash
Stallin
Date: Sun Mar 2 10:54:07 2008
Sender: Brian Dust
Or his little brother Procrastinatin
Date: Sun Mar 2 10:55:44 2008
Sender: Brian Dust
Seriously though, Papa (and/or) Baby Doc Duvalier may earn some consideration.
Date: Sun Mar 2 11:07:54 2008
Sender: Joshua MacOscar
I believe that Castro knows that he is using the people of Cuba for personal
gain and not for misguided beliefs.
Date: Sun Mar 2 11:41:57 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
Stalin maybe more than Hitler.
I'm fairly certain in his warped way Hitler thought the Jews were the evil
ones.
Castro may be doing some solid exploitation, but he sure works hard on the
"good guy" PR.
Baby Doc might be good, what about some of those African dictators...
also I can't imagine someone like Nero or Caligula could have possibly thought
they were doing anything good... but that may have been mental illness from
inbreeding, venereal diseases and drinking from the lead pipes.
Date: Sun Mar 2 11:52:45 2008
Sender: Brian Dust
"but that may have been mental illness from inbreeding, venereal diseases and
drinking from the lead pipes..." -AJ
That's no way to write about the royal family!
Attila The Hun?
Chris Blackman?
Date: Sun Mar 2 18:53:09 2008
Sender: Ryan Perdue
Man, I did think about the royals, lol.
Blackman is getting there, lol.
He really does get away with murder in the WBL and he doesn't care.
If only some of my players could accidentaly end up in his clubhouse, lol.
AJ, I can't think of his name right now but I think the dictator of Sudan and
Stalin fit the build.
Date: Sun Mar 2 18:56:37 2008
Sender: Henry Morgan
Attila the Hun was actually not that far out of character for leaders of that
type and that time. If you put him in that realm, then you have to consider
Temujin, Tamerlane, and many western leaders were hardly less ruthless. We
think of Attila the way we do because he was an outsider and enemy to the
"civilized" states of southern and western Europe.
How about Charles Taylor?
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/02/weekinreview/02polgreen.html
Or maybe Pol Pot.
Date: Sun Mar 2 20:34:09 2008
Sender: Ryan Perdue
Gosh, I think Pot might be the best one yet.
Date: Mon Mar 3 09:10:56 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
Heres a few I've come across...
I scowered the internet and everyone always says Hitler. Though I agree in end
result. From what I know of Hitler, he saw himself more as Germany's saviour
then a genocidal killer.
so I came across:
Vlad the Impaler is an interesting guy.
though believe it or not he was loved by many of the Romanian peasants.
I'm wondering about Mao.
Date: Mon Mar 3 11:10:06 2008
Sender: Henry Morgan
I think Mao would have thought he was doing the best thing for the country. I
think that would be true for most communists.
Date: Mon Mar 3 16:14:02 2008
Sender: Doc Barnes
I was going to say Vlad the Impaler but you beat me to it.
Pol Pot is a good one, but he may be in the realm of thinking he was doing
something righteous.
Papa Doc could also be in this category for his reign in Haiti.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned any of the Roman emperors. Nero and
Caligulan would definitely fit into this category. Those two were downright
nasty little buggers. Maybe even Tiberius but he was more historically known
for his penchant for little boys and unquenchable sexual desires.
I would also think that there would have to be a few English Kings that were
plain bad dudes.
Date: Mon Mar 3 16:31:59 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
LOL... Doc I think we like the same history stuff, but you didn't read very
close.
"Nero and Caligulan would definitely fit into this category."
------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun Mar 2 11:41:57 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
also I can't imagine someone like Nero or Caligula could have possibly thought
they were doing anything good... but that may have been mental illness from
inbreeding, venereal diseases and drinking from the lead pipes.
the same 2 I thought of. Wasn't there another Roman Emperor around Caligula
time who was brutal too?
Date: Mon Mar 3 17:30:15 2008
Sender: Doc Barnes
On second glance you're right, I didn't read very thoroughly. ;)
Tiberius was likely the one to whom you're referring.
There were four emperors associated with the "Fall of the Roman Empire".
Tiberius, Caligula, Nero, and Claudius. Claudius could very easily be seen as
purely bad too, but history tells the story of a cripple born into an
unflicnchingly devious family tree (of which I believe Caligula, Nero and
Tiberius were a part of) but he was too weak physically to be at the level of
evilness equivalent to his predecesors. However, truth be told, he had a
wickedly meticulous mean streak.
I would also wonder about Ghengis Khan. He has to go down as the most ruthless
conqueror the world has ever known. During sieges his troops would launch
diseased corpses over the walls of cities to ravage the besieged with disease.
His grave is one of the greatest, or bizarre, tales in that his entire funeral
party was killed or killed themselves allowing for the location of his grave to
become one of the greatest mysteries in history. In order for him to even
accomplish the level of conquer he amassed during his reign he had to be just
one bad mofo that didn't care for anyone els eother than his own people, which
may in itself not even be likely.
Date: Mon Mar 3 18:00:32 2008
Sender: Doc Barnes
Oh and to address this:
"also I can't imagine someone like Nero or Caligula could have possibly thought
they were doing anything good... but that may have been mental illness from
inbreeding, venereal diseases and drinking from the lead pipes."
It's a common misconception that these guys were suffering from inbreeding and
lead poisoning. The venereal disease is likely but maybe not as impactful.
Lead poisoning would've probably been more present in the lower classes because
most of the nobility would have had spent the majority of time outside of Rome
at their pallacial estates where they would've had spring fed water sources.
Inbreeding for this group was not happening, other than Caligula with his
sister. Here's how it goes in the family tree. Tiberius was the first of the
four emperors. Caligula was the son of Tiberius' adopted son Germanicus and
his wife Agrippina. Claudius was Caligula's uncle, and Nero was the son of
Agrippina the younger, Caligula's sister. I've never really seen any signs of
inbreeding within this empirical line.
Date: Mon Mar 3 18:17:44 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
I have a kid from Inner Mongolia on my rugby team.
Genghis Kahn is a national hero. Mongolians are very proud of that Mongol
heritedge.
Genghis was a horrible enemy, but I'm giving credit to rulers who were at least
looked at fondly by their own people.
He gave me a brief history lesson on Genghis. Apparently, they allowed many of
the conquered countries to peacefully be usurped without bloodshed and keep
their native religions and local governments- something unheard of at the time.
It is also noted some of them were willing to join the Mongol Empire because
things were actually better under Genghis. I think many of these peoples had
been warring factions for centuries (which I imagine gets old)
Date: Mon Mar 3 18:28:03 2008
Sender: Doc Barnes
The thing about Genghis though is that it's likely the reason he allowed
conquered peoples to be somewhat free in their ways was because his empire was
not as large numerically from the onset, and he wasn't the kind of ruler that
quickly absorbed new troops into his conquering factions.
Date: Tue Mar 4 08:40:04 2008
Sender: Henry Morgan
I don't think hardly any of those historical conquerors really qualifies,
unless they all do. Alexander, Attila, Temujin...all pretty much the same
really.
Pol Pot organized his own people into slave labor, fed them very little, and
had anyone killed that looked like a threat to his agrarian collective (like
people that wore eyeglasses), and people who were not useful to it, like
crippled people. 1/3 of the population he "led" died during his reign. People
were forced to dig their own mass graves. There was ethnic cleansing as well.
They refused humanitarian aid, leading to more death due to starvation.
I can't imagine anyone thinking they were doing something good by having people
dig their own mass graves.
Date: Tue Mar 4 08:50:17 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
Unless I'm missing someone...
I think he's safe to go with either
Pol Pot
or
Vlad the Impaler (ie: Dracula)
Interesting thing about both Nero & Caligula. Though they were essentially
"bad", both of the kissed up to the lower classes and ther masses. I'm sure it
was part of the Roman politics, but it made them somewhat popular despite their
madness.
Date: Tue Mar 4 14:13:16 2008
Sender: Doc Barnes
Nero was more or less just a punk kid who happened to be emperor. A lot of
people believe that it may have been Nero himself that started the fire that
burned Rome during which he is famously known for fiddling.
Caligula would have to be more pure in his evil. That guy was one sadistic son
of a bitch. Even though he may have appealed to the masses, he was always
doing things for his own personal pleasure.
One guy not mentioned because he wasn't a national leader would have to be
Joseph Mengala. That was one evil man. And he hid it all behind the name of
medical science.
Date: Tue Mar 4 15:14:38 2008
Sender: Jay Schlegel
You might do some more research on Vlad the Impaler. Isn't he regarded as a
national hero in Romania? Wasn't he doing the church's bidding (i.e., wasn't
he battling the infidel Turks at the request of Rome)?
The key thing though is whether they themselves thought they were doing evil
things? Gosh, I'd bet that NONE of the ones mentioned thought they were doing
evil things or were evil for doing them (or for ordering them done). Maybe
only the psycho serial killer types were warped enough to think that they were
evil and yet went ahead and did it anyway.
Date: Tue Mar 4 16:34:36 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
That was the psychological perspective I was looking at. We consider so many
people "evil", but so few of them would ever agree.
I personally have done some "evil" things in my life, within a normal persons
perspective. Yet I'm able to say, "wow- that was mean". I wanted a
ruler/historical figure who was like "yeah, I just wanted to party, screw the
people.. and if you talk back I'll feed you to the Iguanas you pathetic
peasents"
Even Pol Pot had an ideology, which he probably thought in the end would
somehow be utopic.
Then you have the sicko Roman Emperors, Vlad, Genghis etc.. and even they make
sure they have support of the masses. I imagine as long as a portion of your
population thinks your a great guy it's easy to justify your madness.
Date: Tue Mar 4 16:43:21 2008
Sender: Henry Morgan
How about Pat Robertson?
His connections to Mobutu Sese Seko and Charles Taylor while calling himself
some kind of bulwark for Christianity I find pretty reprehensible. And if the
accusations of diverting funds raised for humanitarian efforts to "conflict
diamond" interests is true, I can't see someone thinking they're doing right by
doing that.
Come to think of it, Sese Seko could fit under this "evil and knows it"
umbrella.
Date: Tue Mar 4 17:17:35 2008
Sender: Brian Pate
I tend to agree with where Jay's coming from. Almost all of the people
discussed here stated they had a higher purpose, one which many others may find
reprehensible, but in their mind is for the greater good. Some did things in
defense of their nation, others to eliminate opponents to their religious or
political ideologies still others in the name of advancing a particular
ideology or religion. I'm fairly certain that each of those people did not see
themselves as evil but more as saviors or leaders of a particular belief,
ideology or group of people...
Also, what complicates things a bit is that the concept of evil is a bit
relative. Certain actions almost all rational people will agree to be evil -
genocide, mass murders, etc - but others will argue that the unchecked
imprisonment or torture of political opponents is ok in some circumstances, or
that taking out a faction which intends to unseat a leader or overturn a regime
is also acceptable at times while some people will disagree.
But, in getting back to AJ's question, I doubt anyone on the scale of Hitler,
Stalin, Pol Pot, et al. thought of themselves as evil.
Date: Tue Mar 4 18:59:49 2008
Sender: Vinchenzo Ramzini
surely Jerry Springer knows he is evil,,,,,,,,and does not care
Date: Tue Mar 4 23:08:02 2008
Sender: Doc Barnes
Ahh, but the thing about an evil ruler is that it's not whether or not they
knew, or acknowledged, what they were doing as evil, but whether or not it was
evil.
Date: Wed Mar 5 05:52:29 2008
Sender: Jeff Luddingsmash
Vinchenzo is spot on... Jerry Springer.
Date: Wed Mar 5 07:17:36 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
evil is relative-
Date: Wed Mar 5 07:58:27 2008
Sender: Kevin Caery
Only our conception of evil is relative -- you cannot know for sure that there
is not an objective evil beyond your comprehension. I believe that there is,
and most of the guys mentioned on this thread probably committed it.
I don't believe for a minute that Hitler bought what he was selling: he was
power-hungry and had an axe to grind against the Jews, who just happened to be
the perfect scapegoat for his purposes.
Date: Tue Mar 18 23:21:40 2008
Sender: Christopher E Smith
I think it's been well-established by this group that Barack Obama HATES this
country! And we all know he is pure evil.
Date: Wed Mar 19 10:04:40 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
technically, I think Barrack Hussein Obama is the antichrist .... or at least
thats what all these right wing sites are spreading-
http://www.topix.com/forum/state/ok/T6LC6ESI3S0DET45G
http://rightwingagenda.blogspot.com/2007/02/is-barack-obama-anti-christ.html
http://wonkette.com/politics/barack-obama/meet-the-antichrist-209549.php
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/03/04/beck-is-obama-the-antichrist/
Date: Wed Mar 19 12:07:50 2008
Sender: Dusty Reed
What's funny about this is this AJ, Most of these sites are right wing guys,
and I ask myself this. If he truly is the anti-christ why aren't you cheering
for him to win this thing. If he is the anti-christ the biggest biblical
prophecy has been fullfilled. Amen brother!
Date: Wed Mar 19 14:56:15 2008
Sender: Henry Morgan
Shall we root for Armageddon too? :)
If Obama were elected, would we all get the mark of the beast?
Date: Wed Mar 19 15:17:24 2008
Sender: Kyle Mayhugh Too
Until I was old enough to know better, I was taught to fear every advance in
credit-card technology as the next step toward the inevitable day where I would
be forced to either have my bank account tattooed on my hand, face beheading or
go live in the woods.
Date: Wed Mar 19 15:53:13 2008
Sender: Henry Morgan
What makes you think you "know better" now and none of those things will
happen?
Date: Wed Mar 19 16:23:59 2008
Sender: Kyle Mayhugh Too
I suppose it is possible. I simply use my best judgment.
I certainly don't reject my religion. I simply look at it through a slightly
less hysterical, groupthink approach than the churches I grew up uin.
Date: Wed Mar 19 16:52:15 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
besides if anyone was the anti-Christ it was Mitt Romney
Date: Wed Mar 19 19:20:44 2008
Sender: Dusty Reed
I was a babby when Ronnie finished his second term, didn't some democrats think
he was the Anti-Christ? Same with George W?
Date: Wed Mar 19 19:58:59 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
I thought all Democrats were godless Athiest?
but yes, there are GW is the anti-christ sites too.
Date: Sun Mar 30 18:24:16 2008
Sender: Bill Howard
Remember, in Revelation is says the world will be an...
Obamanation.
(Speilling a little off though)
Date: Sun Mar 30 18:24:18 2008
Sender: Bill Howard
Remember, in Revelation is says the world will be an...
Obamanation.
(Speilling a little off though)
Date: Mon Mar 31 17:11:58 2008
Sender: Darren Reifler
Roman Emporers are tricky. Caligula was likely legitmatly insane and spent his
life seeing his family members murdered until it was his turn to start
murdering. Near the end he really thought he was a god and would speak to a
statue of Jupitor. He was known to scream at it to call him up to be with the
other gods.
That is what makes Roman Emporers tricky for such a topic. THEY were raised
believing they were above any such morale considerations in the way that
whatever they did was by nature right.
That said, many probably didn't care at all for what Christians would look at
as morality and Pagan Gods were not much as far as role models. Given the
choice, I would go with Nero. Most people feel he burned down Rome to build a
Palace for himself. It is widely accepted that he is the "anti-christ"
character in Revelations and in his time there really were stories about him
coming back after death (not that he did but that it would happen
someday...another factor in why people think he wound up in Revelations).
It's an interesting topic cause to really get at it you have to try to see the
world from a warped viewpoint. Morality is maybe not even the best term. A
bit of Nietzche here but maybe you are really asking who intentionally made the
world a far worse place for their own benefit regardless of how they viewed
their own morality in other terms. By that standard, Hitler probably really
felt he was doing something positive, but Nero and Caligula likely never
thought of the public good.
Date: Mon Mar 31 17:28:55 2008
Sender: Darren Reifler
I should add that I won't defend Hitler either. It is equally likely that he
didn't literally believe the Jews were destroying Germany, especially
considering there were already kept down, and that he just realized that it
would rally people around him and get them mobilized to action.
Date: Mon Mar 31 19:25:54 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
I dont like the Hitler answer, I thik he was probably demented enough he felt
justified...
Here is one of the best Nero descriptions I ever read
http://www.roman-empire.net/emperors/nero-index.html
Date: Sat Apr 5 14:17:05 2008
Sender: Jason Stafford
Doc,
I'd suggest reading this book for a rethink on Ghengis.Here is the wiki article
on it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genghis_Khan_and_the_Making_of_the_Modern_World
I've been fascinated by the Mongol Empire for years and have read many books on
it. This one did more to dispell the ruthlessness of GK than any I've ever
read. He was as equally lenient and forgiveing as he was ruthless.
Date: Tue Apr 15 07:52:30 2008
Sender: Morris Cohen
Any takers for Robert Mugabe?
Is it at all possible that you can just pretend an election never happened,
accuse poll workers of stuffing ballots in order to get them to actually let
you stuff ballots in the next election, order the opposition leaders beaten up,
etc etc etc, and all this to maintain power despite 80% unemployment and
inflation so high that prices change from hour to hour.......and somehow think
you're really the good guy?
Isn't there some point when he would stop pretending to himself that this is a
fair political process, realizing that he just wants power, (probably thinking
he can turn things around), and therefore doesn't care about anything else?
Date: Tue Apr 15 07:56:50 2008
Sender: Morris Cohen
This is hilarious, in a really, really sad way
The opposition party in Zimbabwe organized a work boycott to protest the
election results not being released.
Unfortunately for them, with 80 percent unemployment anyways, it didn't really
make any difference.
Thabo Mbeki is my least favorite person of the week.
Date: Tue Apr 15 08:25:50 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
that is really funny in a sad way.
Genghis Kahn- I know a Mongolian kid in college here. He says they love the
Mongol history, Genghis is a hero. He can spout off all the great things he
did for hours.
I think if your people like you that counts for something, especially way
back then.
Date: Thu Apr 17 10:31:03 2008
Sender: Henry Morgan
I thought I said Mugabe, but I look back and see I didn't.
Add 10000% inflation per annum in Zimbabwe, and he either fits in this category
or he is the by god worst leader of a country ever.
Date: Thu Apr 17 11:35:43 2008
Sender: James Mathis
Bart Giamatti.
Sincerely,
Pete Rose
Date: Thu Apr 17 12:15:57 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
there are probably quite a few that think Art Modell too
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