Date: Sun Apr 20 20:58:12 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
Bases empty. No outs.
Batter: Fuss (0.294 BA, 16 HR, 42 RBI, 0.365 OBA)
Grounder to Byrd (P).
Throwing error. Triple.
2 speed runner
Date: Mon Apr 21 07:44:32 2008
Sender: Eric Opperman
Uh, yeah, that tends to happen when a throw goes wild and rolls out along the
fence until the RF can get there.
Date: Mon Apr 21 14:33:45 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
and the 1B gets attacked by killer bees
Date: Mon Apr 21 16:56:37 2008
Sender: Jay Schlegel
The three-base throwing error makes more sense than this:
Grounder to Byrd (P).
Double.
A grounder up the middle doesn't roll into the corner or split the outfielders
into the gap. Since there is no description, one has to make it up. E.g.,
"Bouncer up the middle, off Byrd's glove, all the way into the dugout for a
ground-rule double." It is realistic, even if extreme/flukey, but mostly it is
just frustrating.
Date: Mon Apr 21 18:57:56 2008
Sender: Mike Boofer
I'm with Eric. I see plays like this more than 1 time a season in MLB.
You aren't really suggesting that the 1B gets to that ball quicker than that
are you? Think about it. Even a slow runner would already be moving towards
first at "full throttle", loose ball gets past a stationary 1B. Now the 1B
must turn 180, run after the ball (which he may or may not get to quickly),
pick up the ball, turn 180 again, set up, make a throw across the feild that he
isn't used to making. I'd say more often than not in that situation I'd expect
the runner to make it 3rd.
However, as Eric said, this would be a play the RF should move to grab. If he
is in posistion he can likely get to the ball much quicker and SHOULD hold the
runner to 2cnd (usually the case), but sometimes the ball takes a crazy bounce
off the wall, off the 'bullpen mound', or the OF just takes a bad angle and the
runner gets an extra base out of that.
Date: Mon Apr 21 20:20:11 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
getting to 3B is a stretch.
1) the pitcher isn't whipping the ball over there 90 mph in most cases, it's
less than a 30' throw.
2) RF's should be backing things up, Catcher will be up and ready.
3) Most runners on their way to first on a ball hit to the pitcher will be
trying to run through the bag and peeling toward the foul line side - not
toward second. (like your taught in little league)
4) Sure a guy might make 3rd once or twice a season, especially if he is fast-
but not 2 speed, and not every other game.
Date: Tue Apr 22 10:08:17 2008
Sender: Eric Opperman
Catcher only comes into play if the ball misses towards the dugout. The
catcher in his gear is not, ever, going to outrun a batter down the line, even
Barry Bonds. If the throw ends up in the bullpen area (or where it would be in
cases where it's outside the field of play), the catcher is still a mile away,
the RF is a mile away. The catcher and RF are jogging on those plays until the
ball's gone, not sprinting. They're not supposed to, but they're human and
they do.
Like Mike said, a runner with a full head of steam is going to get to third on
a ball that comes to rest in the bullpen area.
Alternately, if the throw was airmailed and the 1B threw his glove at it and
hit the ball, it's a three-base award...
Date: Tue Apr 22 10:12:49 2008
Sender: Eric Opperman
Jay, I've actually seen a double off the pitcher's mound before... Line drive
hits the side of the mound -- the SS is moving to cover the middle, the slope
of the mound deflects it over his other shoulder and it rolls into left-center
until either the 2B or one of the OF's can get there. I've only seen it a
couple of times.
And generally, for MLB purposes, a ball that touches the ground in front of
normal infield depth is a grounder, so that would show up as a grounder to the
mound, picked up by the LF/CF/2B.
Date: Tue Apr 22 11:32:17 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
"Like Mike said, a runner with a full head of steam is going to get to third on
a ball that comes to rest in the bullpen area."
Dude this is fundamental,
The runner with a full head of steam will blow through first and peel toward
foul territory. Then the runner could say "oh the ball is thrown away" -
Assuming he noticed it (1/2 the time they don't because their head is down and
they are trying to beat the throw)- and then he might take off for 2nd....
I suppose the ball could roll a mile or so away, even still a 2 speed runner
isn't getting 3rd.
This happens regularly, almost never in MLB.
Date: Tue Apr 22 13:15:40 2008
Sender: Eric Opperman
You're right, I only work in baseball, what do I know? I only go to about a
hundred games a year...
Date: Tue Apr 22 18:44:24 2008
Sender: Darren Reifler
The biggest problem is that it is the pitcher. In softball one year, we had a
guy throw the ball into the other teams dugout and cause the runner had just
rounded first he gets the "Base he was going to" plus another base and so he
wound up on third. We argued it, but later found out that that is the actual
rule in baseball also.
Of course, as obscure as that is our guy did it cause he was in a coma and had
no reason to even throw the ball after the play was over (But did anyway). The
pitcher would have to hang onto the ball for a long time before throwing it out
of bounds. The sim probably messed up.
Date: Tue Apr 22 19:16:18 2008
Sender: Bruce Bond
Maybe the game was being played in the Coliseum in LA and there's 300 feet of
foul ground.
Date: Tue Apr 22 22:08:39 2008
Sender: Eric Opperman
Darren, for what it's worth, the rule on a ball that is thrown into the dugout
or into the stands is two bases from the last base legally occupied by each
runner when the ball is thrown.
Date: Tue Apr 22 22:45:43 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
then Eric...
let me know next time you see it.
Date: Wed Apr 23 07:08:06 2008
Sender: Kyle Bone
I've seen it before as well. Actually saw this happen in a college world
series game I played in JUCO. It is rare, but I've seen it about once a
season.
AJ...what was the fielding rating and speed of the RF that should be backing up
the first basemen? The catcher would have a chance because the pitcher is
throwing away from the catcher if that's how the play went.
Otherwise, it could have gone off the first basemen's glove and into the dugout
for the two base errror. I guess that also brings up the defensive rating of
the 1B as well.
Date: Wed Apr 23 09:10:18 2008
Sender: Jay Schlegel
You've not played 1B, have you AJ? If I didn't play 1B on a field with a
backup fence, I'd *still* be running to pick up all those errant throws...
Granted, that's softball, and professional baseball players should be better at
routine plays, but clearly even pitchers can throw the ball away at 1B and
clearly RF/C/2B is not necessarily nearby to pick it up. It is common enough
that I recall instances where some flamethrower major league pitcher would
rifle a throw to 1B at like 95+mph. Yeah, as fans we think this stuff
*shouldn't* happen, but it does. [major leaguers *should* also be able to lay
down a sacrifice bunt on command too, or hit to right to advance a runner, but
I digress.]
What we do not know, or at least do not recall, is what this means behind the
scenes in DEL-terms. Does pitchers/hitters park factor in at all (pitchers
parks perhaps having a larger foul territory)? C can only run down to back up
1B if there are no other runners on, and they won't be running out into the
bullpen since they need to be at homeplate if the runner keeps running. RF
Sp/Df factors in, maybe Ar too. 2B also, unless they were shifted to left?
And what about intangibles, read: intelligence? Did someone do something
stupid which is not in the PBP? Did the RF miss the cutoff or throw to the
wrong base? If the DEL result simulates the occasional throw into the
stands/dugout, we cannot know this because the PBP does not tell us. Maybe it
is even simulating a weather effect (ball is wet from rain and slips out of
thrower's hand) which we also would not see directly in DEL.
Date: Wed Apr 23 10:56:24 2008
Sender: Brian Dust
I'm with AJ on this one. Acknowledging all the counter points about why such a
play is possible, I'd be frustrated that a 2 Sp guy ends up on third.
Date: Wed Apr 23 18:53:30 2008
Sender: Kyle Bone
If you want examples go to the 2006 World Series footage, plenty of examples of
Detroit pitchers that cannot field their position and one or two of those
hitter made it to third on the errors.
Date: Thu Apr 24 09:41:25 2008
Sender: Kyle Bone
Wow...Washington Nationals 3B Ryan Zimmerman threw a ball that hit off the
glove of the first baseman and went into right field. The hitter made it to
third and the runner on first came all the way around to score. Now, tell me
that doesn't happen in real life because I saw it on SportsCenter this morning.
Date: Thu Apr 24 09:47:00 2008
Sender: Eric Opperman
Nice catch, Kyle.
http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/index.jsp?gid=2008_04_23_nynmlb_wasmlb_1&mode=gameday
AJ,
please direct your bug reports to bud.selig@mlb.com on this one.
Note: Ryan Church would probably be approximately a 2 speed runner, and he was
*JOGGING* and got to third easily.
Date: Thu Apr 24 10:42:46 2008
Sender: Brian Dust
I like baseball highlights, but Church reaches third largely because the
defensive focus was trying to prevent Beltran from scoring on the play. I
don't know enough about Church to rate his speed, but at least in the
highlight, the camera isn't on him while he goes to third - so I can't agree,
or disagree with the statement that he was JOGGING.
It's been some time since I looked at AJ's original PbP, but I thought the
bases were empty on the incident he cited.
Date: Thu Apr 24 12:30:05 2008
Sender: Kyle Bone
Well...then look at this one
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBRk5ybKiO4
Date: Thu Apr 24 14:20:58 2008
Sender: Brian Dust
Kyle,
While stranger things have happened in DEL, typically you don't see 2 Sp
runners attempting to bunt for a base hit with the bases empty. Since that's
what the individual in the youtube clip is doing, we should be able to agree
his DEL equivalent would be much higher than 2 Sp. Also, in this clip, the guy
busts his balls to get to third, not JOGGING.
Regards,
Brian
Date: Thu Apr 24 14:31:21 2008
Sender: Brian Dust
For general clarification, I'm not arguing that the DEL play AJ posted would
never happen IRL, although a 2 Sp player shouldn't be the one accomplishing it.
I looked at AJ's post and my initial response was merely to commiserate -
something you see in the PbP of one of your games that you find very
frustrating.
Also, Jay makes an instructive point, that when trying to picture that outcome
in an actual game, events may have transpired that can't be captured in the DEL
PbP. Again, I think it's something most veteran DEL coaches understand, but
that may not change the short-term frustration of, "ffs, that shouldn't happen
when you first encounter it in the PbP..."
Date: Thu Apr 24 14:34:51 2008
Sender: Brian Dust
INTENDED
"Ffs, that shouldn't happen..." when you first encounter it in the PbP.
Date: Thu Apr 24 18:51:54 2008
Sender: Eric Opperman
Brian, Church is shown loafing around second in the video, slower than I run
while he made sure Beltran was going.
If he'd been running the whole way, with the longer throw to third than to
home, he would have made it had Beltran not been there.
Date: Thu Apr 24 19:27:38 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
well here is the underlying thesis.
I won a championship years back with a power hitting team (362 HR's) we hit.
a game change was made.
I won a championship with a Hit and Run/ Stolen Base team a few years ago.
-
Now I'm trying to make it with a power team again, and I feel all the
advantages are to the small ball teams- this just being another point that
jumped out at me.
Date: Sun Apr 27 10:28:28 2008
Sender: James Mathis
Eh, my MEL Dodgers are a power team, and we just won the World Series. It all
boils down to the postseason being about 85% crapshoot, IMO.
Date: Sun Apr 27 12:01:11 2008
Sender: AJ Perko
2 or 3 ace pitchers can do wonders in the offseason.
Date: Mon Apr 28 08:56:23 2008
Sender: James Mathis
True dat. Although this is the first time they have made a difference. I guess
it takes a few years of making $20M per to make them comfortable enough to not
choke in the playoffs?
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